# Dear Republicans: The debt ceiling? Again?! WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU?!? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 17, 2012, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-the-debt-ceiling-again-what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-you/622190 "2012-05-17T08:12:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-the-debt-ceiling-again-what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-you/622190/41 "2012-05-17T15:22:04Z")
> [@Truman\_Burbank](#): > > We are founded on a 2-party system A commonly believed myth. Our system of government pretty much guarantees a two party outcome, but many of the founders abhorred the idea of political parties. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-the-debt-ceiling-again-what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-you/622190/42 "2012-05-17T15:23:48Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The problem is that every Congress is in a position to make its own rules, with no more majority required than the majority to make the last set of rules. > > The mechanism is ideally the voting public. And I have come to believe that perhaps what the voting public needs here is a dose of reality. In other words, I offered up a list of things earlier that would be at risk with the failure to raise the debt limit – some trivial, some not. > > In this case, the GOP is playing on a public perception of useless bureaucrats. But – as exemplified by the confused man with the “Get Your Government Out of My Medicare” sign – the public is not internalizing what a government abdication of these commitments actually means. > > As painful as it would be, I think that the public needs a dose of what it actually means to stop paying for appropriattions. Perhaps. I’m not sure it would actually work, though. We go through that regularly in CA, and it doesn’t seem to do anything. ---
**Author:** ![Truman\_Burbank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@Truman\_Burbank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truman_Burbank)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-the-debt-ceiling-again-what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-you/622190/43 "2012-05-17T15:25:53Z")
In practice, our federal government operates as a 2-party system… (yes, I know we could pick nits with that one, too)… ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-the-debt-ceiling-again-what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-you/622190/44 "2012-05-17T15:29:29Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Again – so what? > > The question is: what’s the right thing to do? You’re trying to make the question about the motives of the Democrats. How is that relevant? The right thing to do is not to dicker around with the system as it is, since it is hopelessly screwed up. We’re way past the inflection point. The right thing to do is to abolish the system and rebuild it right from scratch. The only way to do that (if we’re very lucky and things fall right) is after a full collapse of the current system. Thus the worse it is, the better it is. Maybe. Of course, the collapse may result in something much worse than it is now. But then doing nothing will probably get us to the same point, just a bit slower. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-the-debt-ceiling-again-what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-you/622190/45 "2012-05-17T15:33:04Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Non-sequitur. I don’t consider any politician to be “honorable” or “principled”. Such people do not run for office to begin with. I’m confused now. So the Republicans doing this grandstanding are not honorable or principled. Their move last time led to a downgrade in the credit rating. But you support them in doing this anyway? ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-the-debt-ceiling-again-what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-you/622190/46 "2012-05-17T15:34:01Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > The right thing to do is not to dicker around with the system as it is, since it is hopelessly screwed up. We’re way past the inflection point. The right thing to do is to abolish the system and rebuild it right from scratch. The only way to do that (if we’re very lucky and things fall right) is after a full collapse of the current system. Thus the worse it is, the better it is. Maybe. > > Of course, the collapse may result in something much worse than it is now. But then doing nothing will probably get us to the same point, just a bit slower. You’re a loony. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-the-debt-ceiling-again-what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-you/622190/47 "2012-05-17T15:35:23Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > The right thing to do is not to dicker around with the system as it is, since it is hopelessly screwed up. We’re way past the inflection point. The right thing to do is to abolish the system and rebuild it right from scratch. The only way to do that (if we’re very lucky and things fall right) is after a full collapse of the current system. Thus the worse it is, the better it is. Maybe. > > Of course, the collapse may result in something much worse than it is now. But then doing nothing will probably get us to the same point, just a bit slower. So your solution, and what you are advocating for, is the collapse of American society? Wow. I don’t even … ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-the-debt-ceiling-again-what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-you/622190/48 "2012-05-17T15:37:56Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > I’m confused now. > > So the Republicans doing this grandstanding are not honorable or principled. Their move last time led to a downgrade in the credit rating. But you support them in doing this anyway? Yes. I support the right decision even if done for wrong reasons. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-the-debt-ceiling-again-what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-you/622190/49 "2012-05-17T15:38:05Z")
I’ve always wanted to live in a post-Apocolyptic world. It looks so fun in the movies! ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-the-debt-ceiling-again-what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-you/622190/50 "2012-05-17T15:38:52Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > The right thing to do is not to dicker around with the system as it is, since it is hopelessly screwed up. We’re way past the inflection point. The right thing to do is to abolish the system and rebuild it right from scratch. The only way to do that (if we’re very lucky and things fall right) is after a full collapse of the current system. Thus the worse it is, the better it is. Maybe. > > Of course, the collapse may result in something much worse than it is now. But then doing nothing will probably get us to the same point, just a bit slower. Ah, so you are indeed hoping to “starve the beast”, and you applaud the current crop of Republicans because you see them causing a complete collapse of the country sooner rather than later. So you’re a patriot because you want the country to suffer a full collapse. Then things will get better somehow. Jesus wept. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-the-debt-ceiling-again-what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-you/622190/51 "2012-05-17T15:39:04Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > So your solution, and what you are advocating for, is the collapse of American society? I don’t equate “American society” with the current government system. American society is way better than that. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-the-debt-ceiling-again-what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-you/622190/52 "2012-05-17T15:42:24Z")
Especially once we get Thunderdome rocking. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-the-debt-ceiling-again-what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-you/622190/53 "2012-05-17T15:44:51Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I’ve always wanted to live in a post-Apocolyptic world. It looks so fun in the movies! I like the cut of your jib. You may join my warband if you like. We’ve got dental (a pair of pliers), retirement (a wood axe) and a ten year supply of iodine pellets. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-the-debt-ceiling-again-what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-you/622190/54 "2012-05-17T15:45:16Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But that’s a classic _ad hominem_ argument – you’re saying that **BPC** cannot advance this argument because of his other beliefs. Not really. See below. > [@](#): > > So now I advance the precise argument he was offering: that this move is partisan political grandstanding, and not an honest objection to the debt. Lol, I already conceded a few posts back that it was partisan and political. > [@](#): > > So now can the underlying argument be addressed? You can address it any time you like. No need to address it with me, since I don’t dispute the partisanship involved. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-the-debt-ceiling-again-what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-you/622190/55 "2012-05-17T15:50:03Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Does it _matter_? If you’re wondering “would I object to the Democrats doing this”, then yes, yes I would. So you will condemn the Democrats for their actions in the 1970s (attaching an anti-war measure to a debt-ceiling bill)? > [@](#): > > if this is anything like the debates in 2011, the Republicans are going state demands, and hold the full faith and credit of the USA hostage until they get those demands. That is _not_ okay. There are no circumstances under which that would be okay. The Republicans ultimately compromised back in 2011, agreed? > [@](#): > > Oh, it can’t be both? No, it can be both. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-the-debt-ceiling-again-what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-you/622190/56 "2012-05-17T15:52:09Z")
> [@Truman\_Burbank](#): > > …but I’m old enough to recall a time when opposition to the other party wasn’t always an absolute, ‘they are the enemy’ proposition. Can you give me a few examples which illustrate this “they are the enemy” attitude you decry? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-the-debt-ceiling-again-what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-you/622190/57 "2012-05-17T15:53:13Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I don’t equate “American society” with the current government system. American society is way better than that. Depends on where you are, here in Arizona it is mostly the troglodytes who are running the society, it is no coincidence that the leaders here want less interference from the federal government. They do not care about any problems they will cause on the way to get the results they want. And they do not care how they get those results by following dumb ideas like following birtherism, forcing default, etc. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-the-debt-ceiling-again-what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-you/622190/58 "2012-05-17T15:53:47Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Ah, so you are indeed hoping to “starve the beast”, and you applaud the current crop of Republicans because you see them causing a complete collapse of the country sooner rather than later. > > So you’re a patriot because you want the country to suffer a full collapse. > > Then things will get better somehow. > > Jesus wept. The sad thing is, this is not an uncommon belief among the extreme right. They absolutely refuse to believe what would happen should the nation default on its debt. That Republicans will so willingly play so close to the brink for the sole purpose of extending those sacred Bush tax cuts is despicable. Time for a new law/amendment: If Congress authorizes spending, the debt will be honored regardless of the level of revenue. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-the-debt-ceiling-again-what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-you/622190/59 "2012-05-17T15:53:58Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I like the cut of your jib. You may join my warband if you like. > > We’ve got dental (a pair of pliers), retirement (a wood axe) and a ten year supply of iodine pellets. Let me grab my leather jacket and I’ll be right over. I hear there’s a tanker truck with a full load of gas heading our way in about an hour. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-the-debt-ceiling-again-what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-you/622190/60 "2012-05-17T15:58:04Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I don’t equate “American society” with the current government system. American society is way better than that. Ok, so what happens to american society if the “current government system” collapses? What would American society be without a governmental system? Do you think American society will stay exactly the same as it is now? Completely unaffected? If not what changes to you anticipate to American society with no government? Or do you think a newer better government will just magically rise from the ashes of this one like a phoenix or something? What happens to our military, and all of the weaponry we have stockpiled? Just curious how you think this will all play out since you are so gung ho in favor of governmental collapse. You must have thought these things through right? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-the-debt-ceiling-again-what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-you/622190.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-the-debt-ceiling-again-what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-you/622190.md?page=4)