# Dear Republicans: This Is Not How Democracy Works! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 9, 2011, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-this-is-not-how-democracy-works/605625 "2011-12-09T15:30:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-this-is-not-how-democracy-works/605625/181 "2011-12-12T16:06:44Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > Which is pretty much what the Dems do. Everybody likes democracy until they’re not getting what they want. When they don’t get what they want, suddenly the system is undemocratic. So you think there is an equivalency between the use of the filibuster by Democrats and Republicans? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-this-is-not-how-democracy-works/605625/182 "2011-12-12T16:33:38Z")
There are changes I should like to see made to the Dept. Defense. Therefore, I should refuse to allow a Sec Def to be approved. Because, obviously, if there is a Sec Def currently serving, all efforts to change the Dept he serves will be useless. OK, go it. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-this-is-not-how-democracy-works/605625/183 "2011-12-12T16:38:39Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > Which is pretty much what the Dems do. Everybody likes democracy until they’re not getting what they want. When they don’t get what they want, suddenly the system is undemocratic, and they decide they don’t have to play fair any more. So your debate strategy here is to pretty much go: “No, u” ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-this-is-not-how-democracy-works/605625/184 "2011-12-12T16:39:55Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > More drama, please. ?? Were you under the impression that this does anything other than make me laugh at your immature stupidity? ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-this-is-not-how-democracy-works/605625/185 "2011-12-12T16:57:55Z")
See, I kind of love the stupidity of filibustering this nominee. Because now the Democrats have the carte blanche to filibuster every damn thing next Congress, in the conceivable outcome of the GOP taking over the Senate. And that will end the filibuster for good (cause Lord knows the Dems don’t have the balls to blow the thing up). Also, now the legislators know the rules - no more “authority begins when a director is appointed” clauses. I do have one question for the tu qoque brigade. Has the Democratic party ever filibustered an executive appointment outside of the judiciary? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-this-is-not-how-democracy-works/605625/186 "2011-12-12T17:47:19Z")
> [@Jas09](#): > > I do have one question for the tu qoque brigade. Has the Democratic party ever filibustered an executive appointment outside of the judiciary? Of course. Just for an example that came to mind, the Democrats filibustered the permanent appointment of John Bolton as Ambassador to the U.N. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-this-is-not-how-democracy-works/605625/187 "2011-12-12T17:58:39Z")
And they did that, of course, because they didn’t like the United Nations. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-this-is-not-how-democracy-works/605625/188 "2011-12-12T18:13:13Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > Of course. Just for an example that came to mind, the Democrats filibustered the permanent appointment of John Bolton as Ambassador to the U.N. I know you’re arguing a different sub-question but … Any Senator who did not filibuster the nomination of the pretentious and despicable “man” named John Bolton should be impeached. Bolton is the “neocon” so blatantly hypocritical and jingoistic even the neocons don’t want him. If anyone wants a good laugh, [the asshole considered throwing his hat into the 2012 Presidential race](http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2010/08/30/2012-watch-bolton-considering-a-presidential-run/) but bowed out, leaving the field to the relative moderates. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-this-is-not-how-democracy-works/605625/189 "2011-12-12T18:45:23Z")
See, I can understand why you feel that way, and why you think this use of the filibuster was justified. The problem is that this makes any protestations of purity, or even relative purity, about filibusters highly suspect. Republicans think that their use of the filibuster is good politics and/or good policy. Are they right? I think the voters will decide that in the short term, and history in the long stretch. Nakedly partisan behavior is on the rise in Congress - and has been for the past generation or so. I don’t pretend to be particularly happy about that, but I don’t want my team to practice unilateral disarmament either. I think that feeling is pretty common across the board. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-this-is-not-how-democracy-works/605625/190 "2011-12-12T18:56:54Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > See, I can understand why you feel that way, and why you think this use of the filibuster was justified. The problem is that this makes any protestations of purity, or even relative purity, about filibusters highly suspect. > > Republicans think that their use of the filibuster is good politics and/or good policy. Are they right? Do you see no diference between filibustering a nominee on the basis of his qualifications and fitness for office, and filibustering a nominee because you object to the position he was nominated to fill? ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-this-is-not-how-democracy-works/605625/191 "2011-12-12T19:14:20Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > Nakedly partisan behavior is on the rise in Congress - and has been for the past generation or so. I don’t pretend to be particularly happy about that, but I don’t want my team to practice unilateral disarmament either. I think that feeling is pretty common across the board. Frankly I’d be happy if your team could just hold to a level, instead of doubling down every time we get a D administration in after a R. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-this-is-not-how-democracy-works/605625/192 "2011-12-12T19:35:39Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > See, I can understand why you feel that way, and why you think this use of the filibuster was justified. The problem is that this makes any protestations of purity, or even relative purity, about filibusters highly suspect. > > Republicans think that their use of the filibuster is good politics and/or good policy. Are they right? I think the voters will decide that in the short term, and history in the long stretch. > > Nakedly partisan behavior is on the rise in Congress - and has been for the past generation or so. I don’t pretend to be particularly happy about that, but I don’t want my team to practice unilateral disarmament either. I think that feeling is pretty common across the board. I understand that it’s special pleading on our part and _kinda_ shifting the goalposts, but this does highlight very excellently what was said earlier in the thread: somehow, a republicans filibuster against a moderate, sensible nominee is equivalent to a democratic filibuster against a man who is not only radical and unfit for the job, but probably batshit crazy! ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-this-is-not-how-democracy-works/605625/193 "2011-12-12T19:42:44Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > Nakedly partisan behavior is on the rise in Congress - and has been for the past generation or so. I don’t pretend to be particularly happy about that, but I don’t want my team to practice unilateral disarmament either. I think that feeling is pretty common across the board. Not really. _ **I** _ certainly want your team to practice unilateral disarmament… 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-this-is-not-how-democracy-works/605625/194 "2011-12-12T19:48:19Z")
So? Where did I plead equivalence? Someone was just asking whether it had happened before - indeed it had. And when we examine the use of secret holds (which work in practice essentially as a one-Senator filibuster) the topic gets murkier. Senator Biden used them against two unremarkable Transportation Department nominees in an attempt to get his bill for Amtrak security passed. And this isn’t the most noteworthy use of this act by either party, not by a long shot. Moderate, sensible nominees held up for an agenda. Why - Senator Biden should have been run out of town on a rail (Ha!) Except that he wasn’t, of course. He had no real interest in holding up the nominees - he was just playing tough politics to fight for reforms that he thought important. Now, the Republicans might be right or wrong. Hold them to account at the ballot box by all means. But asking politicians not to play politics is just foolish. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-this-is-not-how-democracy-works/605625/195 "2011-12-12T19:55:13Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > … I don’t want my team to practice unilateral disarmament either. Whenever an otherwise intelligent person admits to being a Republican, questions come to my mind. Do you mind answering them? What’s your personal view of Bolton? What do you think of Congressmen or other high-placed Republicans who pretended to believe they weren’t sure if Obama was born in Hawaii? The pretense of equivalence between GOP and Demo behavior demonstrates you’re living in a fantasy world. It’s like someone saying: “When we ate at their house, they didn’t offer us catsup with the hamburgers, so we need to reciprocate by serving only dog-shit when they eat at our house.” ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-this-is-not-how-democracy-works/605625/196 "2011-12-12T20:02:24Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > So your debate strategy here is to pretty much go: “No, u” It’s more like “Meh.” I don’t have a debate stategy here. Having a low opinion of both the major parties, I don’t have a dog in this fight, so I don’t have much reason to care. It’s just that the overall attitude here exasperates and amuses me at the same time, rather like a streetwalker complaining about what sluts all the other whores are. Look, you lean heavily towards the Dems, so naturally when the Pubs aren’t playing the game like gentlemen, you’re liable to get your bowels in an uproar. I assure you, though, things look very different to those of us sitting on the sidelines. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-this-is-not-how-democracy-works/605625/197 "2011-12-12T20:04:47Z")
I don’t know why everyone is discussing filibusters. You can’t filibuster an already enacted law. What the Republicans are engaging in is nullification. You know, like John C. Calhoun. They don’t agree with the law, so they’re treating it as if it’s illegitimate, even though it was passed by Congress and went through all the checks and balances contemplated by the Constitution. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-this-is-not-how-democracy-works/605625/198 "2011-12-12T20:05:38Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > I assure you, though, things look very different to those of us sitting on the sidelines. I thought you had a seat near the Republiteam endzone. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-this-is-not-how-democracy-works/605625/199 "2011-12-12T20:14:24Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > Of course. Just for an example that came to mind, the Democrats filibustered the permanent appointment of John Bolton as Ambassador to the U.N. Thank you for the example. I had forgotten that, probably because he ended up being recess-appointed anyway. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-this-is-not-how-democracy-works/605625/200 "2011-12-12T20:15:55Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I thought you had a seat near the Republiteam endzone. Well, apparently they don’t let heavily armed paleoconservatives into the stadium, so I have to watch the game on TV. I mean, really, an AR-15 and a Glock, what’s the big deal … [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-this-is-not-how-democracy-works/605625.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-this-is-not-how-democracy-works/605625.md?page=11)