# Dear Republicans: This Is Not How Democracy Works! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 9, 2011, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-this-is-not-how-democracy-works/605625 "2011-12-09T15:30:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2011, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-this-is-not-how-democracy-works/605625/161 "2011-12-11T23:14:21Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I never voted once for a Republican (or for a Democrat). How many more years before you turn 18? ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-this-is-not-how-democracy-works/605625/162 "2011-12-12T00:13:15Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Maybe you need more than five minutes to understand this issue? r. It’s five minutes more than you gave it. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-this-is-not-how-democracy-works/605625/163 "2011-12-12T00:23:56Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > The point is not that they do, the point is that they _should_. Politicians may not have ethics, but they damn well should. And we should hold them to it. You seem to be coming out against morals as a whole! They should. But they don’t. And they never have. And when you (and I mean singular you here) continue to vote for them or excusing them by “the others are worse”, you’re not “holding them to it”. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-this-is-not-how-democracy-works/605625/164 "2011-12-12T00:25:00Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > How many more years before you turn 18? I’m 48. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-this-is-not-how-democracy-works/605625/165 "2011-12-12T01:42:25Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > It’s five minutes more than you gave it. Please, go arrange the hubcap collection hanging on the side of your trailer.\* People able to think\* are talking here. Unfortunately, they’re talking to _ **Terr** _, but we try. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-this-is-not-how-democracy-works/605625/166 "2011-12-12T01:47:39Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > If we look at the [bar graph from earlier in the thread](http://healthcaretrends.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/senate-gridlock1.jpg), my take-away is that the filibuster was rarely used until the 70s, when the minority Republican party kicked things up a notch. Once the Dems were in the minority, they matched the new normal in terms of use. Then, in the 90s, the minority GOP upped their game once more. When the Dems were once again in the minority (late 90s, 2000s), they once again adopted the new normal as set by the GOP. And here we are again, with the GOP in the minority, sending filibusters up to a new all time high. > > So, it would seem to be the GOP that is leading the charge in the use of filibusters, with the Dems responding in kind when they are thrown into the minority. We’ll see what happens the next time the tables are turned. As it is, it seems that they are both “as bad”, as measured by this metric, but it is the GOP that determines the level of “badness” that is acceptable going forward, resetting that level higher each time they become the minority party. It’s like the Dems are playing “tit for tat”, a highly effective strategy as predicted by simulations against multiple interaction strategies run over many iterations. The GOP might be playing something like “two tits for every tat” or some variation of that strategy-- not known for it’s effectiveness, but better than the worst strategies. > > Still, this is a pretty simplistic analysis, based solely on the quantity of filibuster, without analyzing individual acts to see which ones were more significant. I appreciate that you try to see both sides of an issue, especially when that issue makes righties look bad, but c’mon. 😃 If the Dems didn’t match what the Republicans were doing to them, the country would be in a permanent Republican majority. If someone escalates and is unwilling to back down, you have to match them. That’s not bad. If you’re in a fistfight and someone draws a knife, the other guy in the fight isn’t being a coward by drawing a knife of his own. The trouble is the Republicans have drawn a knife, then a gun and now they’re fighting with with nukes. There is literally nowhere to go but down from here. They took it to eleven. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-this-is-not-how-democracy-works/605625/167 "2011-12-12T01:49:26Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I’m 48. Do you post from truck stops? ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-this-is-not-how-democracy-works/605625/168 "2011-12-12T02:10:18Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Sure. Your enemies rape your women and children, so when you start winning you rape their women and children. Great ethics and principles there. Amazingly, there is a quantitative difference between your example and mine–namely, in mine, the combatants are hurting each other. But your disingenuity is charming all the same–missing the point and concern trollery is about what I’ve learned to expect from you. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > As it is, it seems that they are both “as bad”, as measured by this metric, but it is the GOP that determines the level of “badness” that is acceptable going forward, Which is a shitty way of considering it. Starting a fight is worse than counterattacking in kind. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-this-is-not-how-democracy-works/605625/169 "2011-12-12T02:17:43Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I’m 48. I was asking about your _age_. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-this-is-not-how-democracy-works/605625/170 "2011-12-12T04:17:09Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > If we look at the [bar graph from earlier in the thread](http://healthcaretrends.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/senate-gridlock1.jpg), my take-away is that the filibuster was rarely used until the 70s, when the minority Republican party kicked things up a notch. Once the Dems were in the minority, they matched the new normal in terms of use. Then, in the 90s, the minority GOP upped their game once more. When the Dems were once again in the minority (late 90s, 2000s), they once again adopted the new normal as set by the GOP. And here we are again, with the GOP in the minority, sending filibusters up to a new all time high. > > So, it would seem to be the GOP that is leading the charge in the use of filibusters, with the Dems responding in kind when they are thrown into the minority. We’ll see what happens the next time the tables are turned. As it is, it seems that they are both “as bad”, as measured by this metric, but it is the GOP that determines the level of “badness” that is acceptable going forward, resetting that level higher each time they become the minority party. It’s like the Dems are playing “tit for tat”, a highly effective strategy as predicted by simulations against multiple interaction strategies run over many iterations. The GOP might be playing something like “two tits for every tat” or some variation of that strategy-- not known for it’s effectiveness, but better than the worst strategies. > > Still, this is a pretty simplistic analysis, based solely on the quantity of filibuster, without analyzing individual acts to see which ones were more significant. Except you left out the part where the last time Democrats were in the minority, they agreed to stop using the filibuster on judicial nominees _and kept to their word for the next 4 years_. Because of this mutual agreement, based in part on the argument by Republicans that the practice created a Constitutional Crisis, one would have at least _hoped_ the Republicans would have returned the courtesy the next time they were in the minority (which is now). Not only have they not, but as **Lobohan** points out, they have cranked it up to eleven. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-this-is-not-how-democracy-works/605625/171 "2011-12-12T13:34:02Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Please, go arrange the hubcap collection hanging on the side of your trailer.\* People able to think\* are talking here. Unfortunately, they’re talking to _ **Terr** _, but we try. 😃 People able to think? No evidence of it here. All I see is the standard Republican bashing so common on this board. Now, go sip your white wine and walk your poodle. I’m busy clinging bitterly to my guns and religion and haven’t got time for you. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-this-is-not-how-democracy-works/605625/172 "2011-12-12T13:35:40Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Do you post from truck stops? Do you post from bathrooms in gay bars? ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-this-is-not-how-democracy-works/605625/173 "2011-12-12T13:52:20Z")
Why do you ask? Does he look familiar to you or something? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-this-is-not-how-democracy-works/605625/174 "2011-12-12T13:52:43Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > So, it would seem to be the GOP that is leading the charge in the use of filibusters, with the Dems responding in kind when they are thrown into the minority. [QUOTE=Shayna] Except you left out the part where the last time Democrats were in the minority, they agreed to stop using the filibuster on judicial nominees _and kept to their word for the next 4 years_. [/QUOTE] That’s because [tit-for-tat with forgiveness](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tit_for_tat) is just such a [winning strategy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nice_Guys_Finish_First) in game theory. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-this-is-not-how-democracy-works/605625/175 "2011-12-12T14:07:36Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Why do you ask? Does he look familiar to you or something? Not unless he’s ever been at a truck stop with a gay bar. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-this-is-not-how-democracy-works/605625/176 "2011-12-12T15:19:51Z")
I’m just wondering if any Democrats or liberals here can defend some of the problematic details brought up be the Republican filibuster - like the fact that the agency would be funded off-the-books by the Federal Reserve, which has never been done before, sets a dangerous precedent, and removes the power of Congress to control the agency’s budget. Or the fact that this agency has a vastly different structure than other consumer protection agencies in the government, one that gives outsized power to the Chairman. If Republican opposition reforms some of these issues, it seems to me to be worth it. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-this-is-not-how-democracy-works/605625/177 "2011-12-12T15:25:36Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > If Republican opposition reforms some of these issues, it seems to me to be worth it. They had ample opportunity to raise those issues when the legislation was debated, and those objections were defeated. That is why they are being pitted here, because they don’t like democracy when it doesn’t go their way. Now they are resorting to technicalities to achieve what they could not get through the legislative process. Bad form. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-this-is-not-how-democracy-works/605625/178 "2011-12-12T15:37:56Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > They had ample opportunity to raise those issues when the legislation was debated, and those objections were defeated. That is why they are being pitted here, because they don’t like democracy when it doesn’t go their way. Now they are resorting to technicalities to achieve what they could not get through the legislative process. Bad form. Gotcha. But do you think it is smart to fund an agency through the Federal Reserve? Own up. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-this-is-not-how-democracy-works/605625/179 "2011-12-12T15:47:23Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > Gotcha. But do you think it is smart to fund an agency through the Federal Reserve? > > Own up. I’m on the ropes about this myself. I see the way the SEC’s and other regulatory agencies get their budgets slashed as a means of making them toothless and I see the appeal of an agency with an independent budget. However, it makes me leery, but I can’t put my finger on exactly why. Regarding the Chairman’s outsized power, I was under the impression that regulatory decisions would be subject to board approval contrary to Republican claims that one person would be making all the decisions. However, depending on the internal power structure, the board may just be a rubber stamp. Be all this as it may, it seems rather clear to me that the Republicans just want control so they can neuter the agency as their reforms are aimed at putting them in control of the agency via budgetary methods and congressional approval of regulations. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-this-is-not-how-democracy-works/605625/180 "2011-12-12T16:04:33Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > They had ample opportunity to raise those issues when the legislation was debated, and those objections were defeated. That is why they are being pitted here, because they don’t like democracy when it doesn’t go their way. Which is pretty much what the Dems do. Everybody likes democracy until they’re not getting what they want. When they don’t get what they want, suddenly the system is undemocratic, and they decide they don’t have to play fair any more. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-this-is-not-how-democracy-works/605625.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-this-is-not-how-democracy-works/605625.md?page=10)