# Dear Starbucks: We Don't WANT to Know What You Think . . . **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 23, 2005, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-starbucks-we-dont-want-to-know-what-you-think/327535 "2005-10-23T16:21:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-starbucks-we-dont-want-to-know-what-you-think/327535/121 "2005-10-26T04:18:01Z")
> [@MagicEyes](#): > > A big “Amen” to the rant about size names. In other coffee shops, “tall” means “large.” It’s just plain stupid to call your small drink a “tall.” And what the hell is venti? Does that even mean anything? Why should I have to figure out their special secret code to get the right size drink? I think it was **Ferret Herder** that told me that venti is from the Italian for twenty, as in 20 oz. Panera has two drink sizes: Large and Grande. Um, hello, _grande means large_. Turns out in Panera-ese, it means small. OH OKAY, then. I found that so annoying I emailed them a little rant on intuitive size names. Didn’t really accomplish anything, but I felt better. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-starbucks-we-dont-want-to-know-what-you-think/327535/122 "2005-10-26T05:23:22Z")
> [@Kyla](#): > > I think it was **Ferret Herder** that told me that venti is from the Italian for twenty, as in 20 oz. But the dessert-ier “ventis” are 26 oz. (Eg; a Venti Frappuccino® is 26 oz.) Go figure. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-starbucks-we-dont-want-to-know-what-you-think/327535/123 "2005-10-26T05:36:48Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Wow. If only she’d said anything like that, that’d be a devastating response. She made it quite clear one of the reasons she doesn’t like Starbucks is it is so obviously a business venture. I was just saying that business ventures are good, and I explained why to me it’s actually a comforting thought to know a business is thriving. Maybe the particular form I used to convey that was a bit over the top, but I don’t feel it was something that people would get confused about or take the wrong way. ---
**Author:** ![Hunter\_Hawk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/50afbb/32.png) [@Hunter\_Hawk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hunter_Hawk)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-starbucks-we-dont-want-to-know-what-you-think/327535/124 "2005-10-26T06:59:58Z")
> [@VCO3](#): > > Fascinating! > > Oh, wait, that doesn’t actually offer any new information because the author couldn’t get any out of Starbucks Corporate. Whoopsie! :dubious: Okay, let’s try this again. You had originally posted the following: > [@VCO3](#): > > Starbucks’ pastries are made fresh and delivered daily. They are not made in the stores, but are delivered at 5am fresh and tossed or donated at 2pm. Every day. Seven days a week. They are not saran-wrapped. Whereas the article I linked to contains the following text: > [@The San Diego Union-tribune](#): > > According to Starbucks public relations specialist Jenny Walsh, many seasonal items, such as Cranberry Bliss Bars, are made in Pennsylvania and shipped, frozen, nationwide. > > Moreover, several pound cakes and the reduced-fat coffee cakes that are currently available are also shipped nationwide, frozen, by the San Antonio bakery. So you’re incorrect both about the pastries and about information provided by Starbucks Corporate. Whoopsie indeed. But hey, feel free to backpedal if you wish and claim that your original statement was not intended to imply that all Starbucks pastries were fresh and unwrapped. Because, after all, we on the SDMB should just _know_ what you were referring to without you having to go through all those tribulations of accurate rhetoric and such-like. Just like what you _really_ meant about Starbucks’ roasting practices was that…umm… Okay, folks, help me out here. I got nuthin’. ---
**Author:** ![Ooner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/c67d28/32.png) [@Ooner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ooner)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-starbucks-we-dont-want-to-know-what-you-think/327535/125 "2005-10-26T07:12:14Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > I’m going to have to take your word for it. I don’t remember seeing any of that stuff on their menu boards, and I’ve looked for it. All I’ve seen is variations on Tall Grande Big Fat Mocha Alpachino. And I’ll chime in to NOT take your word for it, and call you a liar or an idiot. The starbucks menu does, and always has, clearly listed coffee on the menu. I don’t know what it is about Starbucks, but it brings out the hyperbole like no debate I’ve ever seen. All of a sudden, instead of being roasted too dark and tasting a little burnt translates to hideous horrible burned to death charcoal-water. Slightly silly cup sizes turn into a confusing mess of completely incomprehensible words with no comprehensible function. A latte or mocha is described as some crazy wacky froo froo drink. Listen, if you want to hate on Starbucks, go for it, but for fuck’s sake come up with something better than the tired ass “oh my god it’s a $4 cup of coffee” exaggerated inaccurate bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![TLDRIDKJKLOLFTW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/51bf81/32.png) [@TLDRIDKJKLOLFTW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TLDRIDKJKLOLFTW)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-starbucks-we-dont-want-to-know-what-you-think/327535/126 "2005-10-26T07:41:20Z")
> [@Hunter Hawk](#): > > But hey, feel free to backpedal if you wish and claim that your original statement was not intended to imply that all Starbucks pastries were fresh and unwrapped. Because, after all, we on the SDMB should just _know_ what you were referring to without you having to go through all those tribulations of accurate rhetoric and such-like. Just like what you _really_ meant about Starbucks’ roasting practices was that…umm… Okay, folks, help me out here. I got nuthin’. I’ts ok! I understand that many senior citizens, like yourself, have a difficult time using the internet. The confusing jumble of hysterical ramblings that you linked to seemed to reveal only that **some** **seasonal** pastries _may_ be shipped, frozen, from a central location. The rest, as your own article that you obviously wrote explained, are made locally. ---
**Author:** ![Hunter\_Hawk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/50afbb/32.png) [@Hunter\_Hawk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hunter_Hawk)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-starbucks-we-dont-want-to-know-what-you-think/327535/127 "2005-10-26T08:05:36Z")
> [@VCO3](#): > > The confusing jumble of hysterical ramblings that you linked to seemed to reveal only that **some** **seasonal** pastries _may_ be shipped, frozen, from a central location. :rolleyes: You’re not really into that whole “reading for comprehension” thing, are you? The article clearly states that both seasonal and non-seasonal items definitely are shipped, frozen, from the central location. And yes, other pastries are manufactured locally. Which frankly is a nonissue as far as I’m concerned, since even though the origin may be local the quality is generally pretty low. That, however, is a matter of opinion, and I’m sure the “we like well-done steak” contingent will be along in short order to speak up in defense of the Starbucks pastries. For example, I believe that a lot of the pastries in the Seattle-area locations are from a manufacturer called “Mostly Muffins”, which is mediocre enough that the food section in _The Stranger_ newspaper devoted several columns to the issue. The Top Pot donuts are better, but IMO are still pretty forgettable; there’s plenty of better pastry readily available. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-starbucks-we-dont-want-to-know-what-you-think/327535/128 "2005-10-26T08:13:12Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > She made it quite clear one of the reasons she doesn’t like Starbucks is it is so obviously a business venture. I was just saying that business ventures are good, and I explained why to me it’s actually a comforting thought to know a business is thriving. I agree, “obviously a business” was a poor choice of words – but it’s fairly obvious that she didn’t mean it as a criticism of business itself, but as a comment on the aesthetics of Starbucks: Bland and corporate. Not a biggee for me-- I have no problem with Second Cup or SBC, which are equally bland and corporate, except with coffee that doesn’t taste terrible. Still, neither of them are a patch on a really _good_ quiet little cafe that serves _excellent_ coffee. I didn’t want to come back to **VC03** ’s estimation of “Starbucks bashers,” because I figured we were getting far enough off-topic with stuff that might be more suited to Is drinking coffee that is over-roasted unsophisticated?, but it seems that there’s little interest in the quotations tempest remaining anyway, so… I’m still rankled by the suggestion that people who are critical of the Starbucks Roast must naturally prefer tepid Maxwell House. This is such an astonishing display of missing-the-point. It’s like saying that people who are disdainful of skunky Heineken are know-nothings whose palates are accustomed to Coors Light – as if there wasn’t a wide world of quality beer out there. Crikey. I’d sooner drink Starbucks than a Denny’s-style dishwater cuppa – but that doesn’t mean that Starbucks is a quality cup – just that it compares well with the stuff that is used primarily to get bacon grease of your tongue of a morning. I’m critical of Starbucks’ coffee because I’m used to _better_. I’ve always lived in a coastal Coffee Town. Real espresso bars have never been far away. I learned how to properly roast my own beans at an early age from an old Russian man that lived upstairs, to whom coffee was practically a religion. I bought a nice commercial Faema double pull espresso machine off that guy, which served me well for years. I only stopped buying raw coffee beans in Little Italy when the market developed enough that it became easy to buy a wide variety of high-quality, fresh roasted beans at many, many locations in the city. At the moment, my standard morning cuppa comes from Antioquian beans bought freshly-roasted (French) from a fair-trade collective here in town, and ground just before the water boils. I get my espresso beans from a little Brazilian cafe around the corner. Starbucks tastes like failure – literally. I can’t taste it without seeing old Oleg spit in disgust: “Pah! Second expulse, you _pull!_ They burn on the tray! You kill the beans.” Those are the beans you put in a paper bag and give to someone who doesn’t care. The way good espresso coats your tongue with that wonderful aromatic oil – that’s why you drink it. It’s awesome. If you overroast your beans like Starbucks does, you don’t get that at all – you get that concentrated carbony taste, instead. Bleah. Taking this product and dressing it up with a slick outlet and flash packaging is like putting lipstick on a pig. Starbucks wouldn’t put a hair up my ass if it wasn’t so pretentious – it’s the McDonald’s of espresso bars. Fine – I guess there’s a place for that – but McDonald’s doesn’t pretend to be a premium steakhouse, and charge accordingly. They’re irritating enough in a city where you never have to walk too far to find a really _good_ cup of coffee, but if I lived somewhere that had limited choices to begin with, and Starbucks muscled them out of business, I think I’d be tempted to start building a fertilizer bomb. (Note to CARNIVORE: No, not really. Hyperbole. Not even after seven double espressos.) Anyway, there are two types of people who can’t abide Starbucks coffee: Those who have a clue about the preparation of coffee from harvest to inhalation, and those who don’t, but intuitively know, nonetheless, that burnt crud is burnt crud, no matter how glossy the ads are or how pretty the package is. ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-starbucks-we-dont-want-to-know-what-you-think/327535/129 "2005-10-26T10:01:55Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > She made it quite clear one of the reasons she doesn’t like Starbucks is it is so obviously a business venture. I was just saying that business ventures are good, and I explained why to me it’s actually a comforting thought to know a business is thriving. Maybe the particular form I used to convey that was a bit over the top, but I don’t feel it was something that people would get confused about or take the wrong way. It’s not just the coffee, it’s the experience. Starbucks is fine for when I just want a cup of coffee to go. I’m a cream-and-sweetener or foofy-drink kind of person, and Starbucks fits that bill nicely. I get what I want and leave, and it doesn’t matter if it comes from Starbucks, Sheetz, or wherever. But if I’m looking for a place to sit and relax and socialize, I can’t do that at Starbucks. Sure, they strive for a cozy atmosphere, but it doesn’t quite work. I blame the corporate nature of Starbucks for that, where everything is the same, and everything is done according to policy. It’s like McDonald’s. You go in expecting certain things, which you know they’ll deliver. It’s nice when they go above and beyond, but you know that may not happen and so you don’t expect it. In the grander scheme of things, it’s just coffee, really. Robin ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-starbucks-we-dont-want-to-know-what-you-think/327535/130 "2005-10-26T12:14:24Z")
> [@Larry Mudd](#): > > But the dessert-ier “ventis” are 26 oz. (Eg; a Venti Frappuccino® is 26 oz.) Go figure. 😃 Ah well, the only time I’ve been to Starbucks was when I would have killed for a cocoa at 6 am in the airport in Atlanta. I’m not a coffee drinker at all and I dislike the Starbucks MO of opening up as close as possible to an existing cafe and trying to put them out of business. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-starbucks-we-dont-want-to-know-what-you-think/327535/131 "2005-10-26T13:39:06Z")
> [@Ooner](#): > > And I’ll chime in to NOT take your word for it, and call you a liar or an idiot. The starbucks menu does, and always has, clearly listed coffee on the menu. Must suck to be born without a sense of humor. I pity you. Assmunch. > [@](#): > > Slightly silly cup sizes turn into a confusing mess of completely incomprehensible words with no comprehensible function. Forgive me for not knowing the difference between Tall, Venti, and Grande. Guess I missed the day they explained The Cult of Starbucks in gradeschool. ---
**Author:** ![bdgr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@bdgr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bdgr)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-starbucks-we-dont-want-to-know-what-you-think/327535/132 "2005-10-26T16:29:20Z")
wow…I just noticed VC03 is in Chicago, and Chicago has intelligencia…reportedly some of the best espresso on the continent (I’ve been trying to find an excuse to go to Chicago just to try the place). Drop in there and see what real coffee is like. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-starbucks-we-dont-want-to-know-what-you-think/327535/133 "2005-10-26T16:49:44Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > Must suck to be born without a sense of humor. I pity you. Assmunch. I’m sorry, but some of us didn’t realize that rehashing tired comedy routines was supposed to indicate humor and thought you were just an idiot. I didn’t realize you were actually a comedian from the '90s and thought your jokes were fresh. My apologies. > [@](#): > > Forgive me for not knowing the difference between Tall, Venti, and Grande. Guess I missed the day they explained The Cult of Starbucks in gradeschool. Don’t have to be in a cult. You just have to be someone with a functioning brain - something you apparently lack. See, you look at the board. There’s a big sign there that say’s “Coffee” in the largest type setting they have. And underneath, in smaller type setting they have “Regular or Decaffeinated.” Then they have two options underneath that: “Hot Coffee” and “Shaken Iced Coffee” with sizes and prices to the right of it “Tall” which is the cheapest, “Grande” which is slightly more expensive and then “Venti” which is the most expensive. That right there should be an easy indicator to anyone who wasn’t an utter moron that the tall would be the smallest size and the venti would be the largest. Ah, you ask, but how am I to know how big those sizes are in ounces? Well, not only do they have the cups displayed prominently so you can do a quick visual comparison, but they also **tell you** what the sizes are with “Tall (12oz)”, “Grande (16oz)” and “Venti (20oz)” right there on the board! See, nothing to it! ---
**Author:** ![bdgr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@bdgr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bdgr)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-starbucks-we-dont-want-to-know-what-you-think/327535/134 "2005-10-26T17:03:12Z")
I thought about labeling my cup sizes in Cherokee, but then people pointed out that most of the customers didn’t speak Cherokee and it would just make things difficult. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-starbucks-we-dont-want-to-know-what-you-think/327535/135 "2005-10-26T17:04:47Z")
> [@bdgr](#): > > I thought about labeling my cup sizes in Cherokee, but then people pointed out that most of the customers didn’t speak Cherokee and it would just make things difficult. That’s fine. But honestly, have you ever heard of anyone except brain-dead, tired comedians having a hard time understanding the cup sizes at a Starbucks? Honestly. ---
**Author:** ![bdgr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@bdgr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bdgr)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-starbucks-we-dont-want-to-know-what-you-think/327535/136 "2005-10-26T17:12:33Z")
> [@Neurotik](#): > > That’s fine. But honestly, have you ever heard of anyone except brain-dead, tired comedians having a hard time understanding the cup sizes at a Starbucks? Honestly. See…thats what I said. They can learn. Coffee should be called “go-we”…If you people are going to move to this country you should learn the language. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-starbucks-we-dont-want-to-know-what-you-think/327535/137 "2005-10-26T17:20:52Z")
> [@Neurotik](#): > > I’m sorry, but some of us didn’t realize that rehashing tired comedy routines was supposed to indicate humor and thought you were just an idiot. I didn’t realize you were actually a comedian from the '90s and thought your jokes were fresh. Thank you, I’ll be here all weak. Googling on “starbucks menu”, I get several hits on pages that explain how to decifer the confusing menu boards, so apparently I’m not the only 90s comedian out there. And even the page that has the infinitely more readable version of the menu lists as its first item “Coffee of the Day.” To me that suggests that even their regular coffee is a daily special, and they don’t serve just plain coffee. But I bow to your superior brain powers and your 2000’s Style Comedy Ray. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-starbucks-we-dont-want-to-know-what-you-think/327535/138 "2005-10-26T17:26:46Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > Thank you, I’ll be here all weak. Week. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![bdgr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@bdgr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bdgr)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-starbucks-we-dont-want-to-know-what-you-think/327535/139 "2005-10-26T17:36:58Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > …lists as its first item “Coffee of the Day.” To me that suggests that even their regular coffee is a daily special, and they don’t serve just plain coffee. > > But I bow to your superior brain powers and your 2000’s Style Comedy Ray. Well, the problem there is that there is no such thing as just plain coffee. Any coffee you buy anywhere has an origin, a species(there are three that are usable), and a roast level. That includes the stuff in the cans at the supermarket and the cup at the truck stop. Many times its a blend of several origins and often a couple of species. Coffee shops tend to differentiate and let you know what you’re drinking. So a special of the day might be Sumatra, or kenya (there is a BIG differance in taste between them)etc… and in most other shops there would also be something like french roast, or city roast or something along those lines. Its still just a straight unflavored coffee. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-starbucks-we-dont-want-to-know-what-you-think/327535/140 "2005-10-26T18:00:15Z")
That makes sense. Not being a coffee afficianado, I didn’t think about that, nor do I truly care. But if I can piss off **Neurotik** with my 90s style comedy, it’s all good. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-starbucks-we-dont-want-to-know-what-you-think/327535.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-starbucks-we-dont-want-to-know-what-you-think/327535.md?page=8)