Dear Weirdo: please curb your so-called "service dog"

[WhyNot]

@Snowboarder_Bo

Frankly, I think it should be part of the deal that a person has to be able to provide proof that an animal is a service animal. I can’t see that being a burdensome regulation, but I’d be willing to be hear how I might be wrong about that.

Money is a big issue. A service animal can cost upwards of $20,000 to raise and train. Many organizations don’t charge the end user, but the cost, as well as the time intensive nature of the training, slows their production of service animals, so there is always a much higher need than can be filled.

Some people, like curlcoat, train their own service animals. Some stumble onto their own service animals. A dog that was initially purchased as a pet turns out to be good at sensing their owner’s seizures coming on. With this gift noticed, it’s not too hard to train the dog to signal you to lay down before you start to have a seizure. This dog now meets the legal requirements for a service animal, without the expense and wait, but there’s no third party to claim responsibility for training and testing of this service animal.

I’m not opposed to a real registration of service dogs (in contrast to the current scammers) in theory, but we’d have to figure out a way for DIY trained service dogs to be registered without expensive fees, travel for testing, etc. for me to consider it truly not a burdensome regulation. Perhaps if one could get a certificate from one’s veterinarian at a regular visit and mail it into the state…

But does that veterinarian want to take on additional liability? What if that dog they certified bites someone? Would that open them up to a lawsuit, for certifying an unfit animal? Do they need more insurance coverage? Would they have to create actual testing, which requires time (and therefore money)? Are veterinarians trained and qualified to judge the fitness of service dogs? I don’t know.

On the other hand, I think one could make an argument that having a service dog inspected by the state isn’t any more burdensome than having your car inspected. I know some states require annual inspections of cars. The question then becomes, is it reasonable to expect a disabled person to go without their service animal if they don’t/can’t get it inspected, the way we expect a person to go without their car if it isn’t inspected? A car isn’t necessary to life, although it makes life a lot easier; the same could be said of most service animals. How are we going to pay for state inspection and administrative costs of regulation of service animals?

I don’t have a firm opinion or a lot of answers here, I just have a lot of questions.

@Steophan

I’m rather surprised at such an amount of ableist bullshit on this forum, given the general preponderance of leftie SJWs.

The board milieu has shifted in the last few months.

[kayT]

WhyNot said “The board milieu has shifted in the last few months.” I do not agree with this. I also don’t agree that there is a large amount of “ableist bullshit” in this thread. I support service animals. I do not support people taking their dogs into stores just because they don’t like leaving them in the car. And I don’t support (although I do sympathize with) stores who let people do this out of cowardice, fear of lawsuits or just not knowing the law. I don’t like buying my goods in stores where Fifi has drooled all over them. (Or in a case I had this last week, the parrot has pooped all over the STORE!) That does not make me “ableist”. It makes me sick of idiots and liars. Big difference.

[Tranquilis]

@russian_heel

Im as patriotic as the next guy, but often resent someone getting special privileges just because they were in the military (topic for a different thread). Unless I see Sparky getting up and hand feeding an armless, legless vet Im skeptical how they are “service dogs”.

See, there is a high level of ignorance to be fought here. PTSD does NOT only affect service memebers. The severe phsychological damage from mental trauma can affect anyone. Nor are PTSD sufferers visibily obvious. Nor is PTSD some overblown case of stress - In its worst forms, it is utterly debilitating. I mean, fetal position-in-the-corner-when-triggered debilitating. And when I say ‘triggered’ I dont mean ‘someone hurt my feelings.’ I’m talking about a trigger that incites a terrible and often difficult to escape feedback loop in the victims mind that uttlery compromises their ability to function normally.

My breed club has provided several dogs for PTSD training, and one specific example stands very much in mind; a former service member recieved this dog, but it wasn’t for combat-induced PTSD - the injury was from gang-rape (Gender and details will be withheld). When this person goes into a fugue state, they have quite literally bolted out into traffic, run headlong into solid objects, and once were found face-down in shallow water, incoherent and unable to self-rescue.

Their dog is a HUGE dog, and the reason for that is that the dog is trained do some difficult tasks.
Item one is to physically block people from approaching too close - The dog interposes its body between it’s owner and the general public. Item two is to ‘cover’ - to sit or stand watching the owner’s back-trail, so no one may approach unnoticed. Item three is to disrupt a fugue state at the begining - by physically interacting with the owner, the dog provides competing input that disrupts the feedback loop. The last item is rescue - in case of a fugue state which is not disrupted, the dog will act to keep teh owner out of dangerous situations, by physically haulling them away, if necessary. In one case, pulling the owner out of shallow water (as mentioned above - That instance, the owner’s friends followed when the owner bolted, and found the dog hauling the owner up out of the water by their clothing).

PTSD dogs have a huge task - and are correspondingly very hard to train. Prices run in the US$20K and up range for a professionally-trained dog.

[curlcoat]

One thing that makes it difficult to tell the difference between a real service dog and someone passing Foofoo as one is situations like mine. Depending on the day, I could look completely fine and in fact, may at that moment be completely fine. However, I am spending all of my time trying to create and lengthen those times when I can be normal and my service dog helps me do that, in addition to helping me when I have to go back to being a crip. So if you see me, say, in a cafe with my dog and don’t notice that I use my arms to get out of the chair, or maybe walk a little funny, you might think the dog is just a Foofoo. If my husband is with me, I may not look abnormal at all since he’s pretty well “trained” in the help that I need and just looks like a helpful attentive spouse.

OTOH, my current service dog is 85 lbs, so he doesn’t look too Foofoo …

[Saintly_Loser]

@Baker

Bolding mine.

What about seeing eye dogs? Would you object to seeing them in church? Sheesh, a properly trained seeing eye dog is better behaved than many kids.

You’ll notice that I said “***fake ***service dogs.”

[Broomstick]

@Ambivalid

So the impression I’m getting is that dogs are the only animal that is eligible for either/any of these roles (seeing eye and service)?

No. Dogs are probably the most common animals trained for those roles, but others can and have been used.

@Seanette

My concern would be whether a horse can be housebroken.

Yes, but it’s takes a LOT of patience of training and the right horse. Not all of them can “get” the concept.

[Dendarii_Dame]

@Broomstick

There have been issues involving Muslim cab drivers and service dogs, like seeing eye dogs, in Chicago due to Islam regarding dogs as “unclean” (apparently, not quite as bad as pigs but getting there). However, it is my understanding that the Koran makes a distinction between working dogs or those providing a service (which would apply to the Seeing Eye or Guide Dogs for the Blind) and those that are essentially useless [del]parasites pets.[/del] So actual service/working dogs should be OK, but as often happens, theory and practice do not always match and the average member of the group may not be fully informed or have mistaken ideas about the rules of that group.

Years ago on The People’s Court (and RIP Judge Wapner) there was a case in which a blind woman called a cab to take her to a job interview. The cab driver was Muslim and refused to bring her Seeing Eye dog. He did radio for a different cab for her, but the dispatcher couldn’t get one there in time who was willing to take the dog. By the time she found a cab from a different company, she’d missed the interview. She showed up with the California law requiring public transportation to allow service animals. He claimed the First Amendment meant he didn’t have to, since it was against his religious beliefs. Wapner ruled in her favor.

[Green_Bean]

Hey, guys - “Seeing Eye” should be capitalized. The Seeing Eye in Morristown, NJ is the best-known guide dog school, so people tend to use it as a generic term for “guide dog.” That’s not really proper, but that’s neither here nor there.

[kayaker]

@Green_Bean

That’s not really proper, but that’s neither here nor there.

If it’s not here and neither is it there, then where the fuck is it?

[DummyGladHands]

I know these “so-called” support animals are a huge problem for landlords. I have been threatened more than once, but luckily, nothing has ever come of it.

[Corry_El]

“I’m pretty sure that the pit bull with the barefoot hippie chick in the produce section of the supermarket was not an actual service dog. The dog didn’t even walk to heel or sit on command.”

@russian_heel

Im as patriotic as the next guy, but often resent someone getting special privileges just because they were in the military (topic for a different thread).

All that said, I agree with you there is a gulf of difference between a wounded marine being accompanied by a German Sheperd wherever they go versus some old bat smoking a cancer stick blowing her car on a slot machine with Poochy

I generally agree, minus the breed specific element. There’s no reason a so called ‘pit bull’ or ‘poochy’ type dog couldn’t be a bona fide service dog, especially the former if there’s a genuine issue with ‘poochy’ not being big and strong enough to physically aid somebody if that’s the dog’s mission, the ‘pit bull’ type dog might well be. But again, minus the breed stuff I agree: the dog, whatever its appearance category, of the ‘hippie chick’ might obviously have lacked the behavior of an actual service dog. And if a dog is having ‘accidents’ indoors, though that could be stomach upset or more serious health problem with any dog, it isn’t a good sign either, obviously.

I also agree about sometimes excessive focus on veteran needs as opposed to just needs. If a person has PTSD, that person has special needs, whatever the background. Among other things this could relate to my generation (coming of age just post Vietnam, long before Gulf War etc.). In those days ‘vet’ still meant somebody who fought in a war (up to them to consider whether being a rear echelon type qualified or not), not everybody who ever joined the military. People my age joining knew the country had zero appetite for any more wars of choice for the time being, and if the ‘big one’ came looking for us, 1,000’s of nuclear weapons were aimed at the whole country.

Anyway a real need is a real need. But like I said before, if you extend special accommodations to disabled people, some other people will abuse that to some degree. Which includes legalisms like "you can’t ask a person about their disability but you can ask the ‘completely different question’, ‘are you bringing this dog in because of a disability’ ". Again come on, if business owners are being relied on to be lawyers, or pay lawyers constantly for advice about each situation day to day, they’re just going to back off and not ask. You have to accept that to some degree as the trade off for avoiding bad feelings to disabled people which might result from being asked what’s their deal. It’s built in to some degree. I’m not saying this is a reason to roll back accommodation for the disabled, just a real life trade off.

[curlcoat]

@Corry_El

You have to accept that to some degree as the trade off for avoiding bad feelings to disabled people which might result from being asked what’s their deal. It’s built in to some degree. I’m not saying this is a reason to roll back accommodation for the disabled, just a real life trade off.

I had trouble parsing this - maybe it’s the wine … Anyway, if you are saying that maybe the government should allow somewhat more invasive questions to determine if someone really needs a service dog, or if it is actually an emotional support dog, well I personally wouldn’t have much of a problem with that. Being disabled is simply a fact of life for some folks so I can’t see why most would have a problem with questions like “is this a service dog or support dog” or “are you in need of a service dog due to a disability” or even " what the heck is your disability anyway"

[kambuckta]

curlcoat, I’m curious…how does a person needing a service dog train their OWN service dog?

[curlcoat]

@kambuckta

curlcoat, I’m curious…how does a person needing a service dog train their OWN service dog?

The same way you train any dog? Not sure what you are getting at.

[Kimstu]

@kambuckta

curlcoat, I’m curious…how does a person needing a service dog train their OWN service dog?

Depends on the nature of the disability. Obviously a blind or deaf person, for example, can’t train a dog to alert them to situations that they themselves are unable to perceive.*

But, for example, someone who has seizures or anxiety could presumably deliberately mimic the symptoms they want the dog to recognize, and train the dog to respond to them in a certain way. (Training would probably be far more difficult or impossible during an actual seizure or even anxiety attack.)
*Actually, it just occurred to me that a deaf person could in theory set up a training apparatus which included both the sound they want the dog to recognize and some other signal that they themselves are able to perceive, so they could tell if the dog is responding correctly. Like, wire your doorbell so it also triggers a flashing light or a text signal to your phone, and then you can give the dog the appropriate instruction.

[Broomstick]

If I recall correctly, there was a deaf woman who trained her deaf dog to bark on command. As you surmised, she used various means to determine when the dog was or wasn’t making noise (one this she did was lightly hold her hand on the dog’s throat, to feel the vibration of a bark).

I saw the pair on a TV show (maybe That’s Incredible - it’s been a long while). The dog would bark on command. It was a bit of a weird sounding bark, just as a deaf person’s voice also sounds “off” to the hearing. Regardless, it was a damn impressive feat for both of them.

[Ambivalid]

There used to be this lady who used a wheelchair and worked at my fitness center who had a service dog with her at all times. This woman had what is known as “walking quadriplegia”, which is a spinal cord injury and paralysis that affected all four limbs (which is what quadriplegia is), with the most severe paralysis occurring in the upper body. So she could stand and walk, albeit wobbly.

I never quite understood what purpose the dog served. Opening doors is about all I can think of. She had no problem with her sight, hearing or ability to speak. She drove her own car and did her own transferring, etc. But she always had that dog with her, on a leash, wearing a blue service animal vest. It was a Golden Retriever, if I recall correctly.

[WhyNot]

@Ambivalid

There used to be this lady who used a wheelchair and worked at my fitness center who had a service dog with her at all times. This woman had what is known as “walking quadriplegia”, which is a spinal cord injury and paralysis that affected all four limbs (which is what quadriplegia is), with the most severe paralysis occurring in the upper body. So she could stand and walk, albeit wobbly.

I never quite understood what purpose the dog served. Opening doors is about all I can think of. She had no problem with her sight, hearing or ability to speak. She drove her own car and did her own transferring, etc. But she always had that dog with her, on a leash, wearing a blue service animal vest. It was a Golden Retriever, if I recall correctly.

Likely, at least among other things, the dog was trained to help her stand if she fell and couldn’t get back up on her own because of the paralysis in her hands and arms. If the dog could get under her arms and then use counterbalance or a braced posture, she may have been able to pull/push herself up.

But for all I know, he also helped her with light switches and laundry and opening doors. They can do lots of things. But wobbly walk makes some sort of fall assistance likely.

[curlcoat]

@Ambivalid

There used to be this lady who used a wheelchair and worked at my fitness center who had a service dog with her at all times. This woman had what is known as “walking quadriplegia”, which is a spinal cord injury and paralysis that affected all four limbs (which is what quadriplegia is), with the most severe paralysis occurring in the upper body. So she could stand and walk, albeit wobbly.

I never quite understood what purpose the dog served. Opening doors is about all I can think of. She had no problem with her sight, hearing or ability to speak. She drove her own car and did her own transferring, etc. But she always had that dog with her, on a leash, wearing a blue service animal vest. It was a Golden Retriever, if I recall correctly.

Was she able to pick things up off the floor? That’s the first thing that came to mind, since it sounds like she wasn’t stable enough to bend over without falling. If she had a manual chair, maybe the dog helps her with it sometimes, as I know someone confined to a chair whose dog pulls her uphill and helps brake her downhill.

When I am on an airplane, my dog isn’t doing anything for me, if for no other reason he would be in the way if he were to pick something up for me that fell in the aisle! I don’t even use the balance handle as there isn’t enough room to walk side by side in the aisle. So, I’m sure there are folks on the plane who think he isn’t really a service dog because he doesn’t work during the flight. Same if I’m with my husband - hubby is a better service dog. If we are going to be together thruout a trip, then I don’t need the dog, but if we aren’t the dog will be with us even when it is hubby doing the work.

[Ambivalid]

@WhyNot

Likely, at least among other things, the dog was trained to help her stand if she fell and couldn’t get back up on her own because of the paralysis in her hands and arms. If the dog could get under her arms and then use counterbalance or a braced posture, she may have been able to pull/push herself up.

But for all I know, he also helped her with light switches and laundry and opening doors. They can do lots of things. But wobbly walk makes some sort of fall assistance likely.

She does spend the vast majority of time in the chair, however. The only times I ever saw her stand and walk was when she was transferring into her car and had to put her chair in her back seat. But yes, I hadn’t thought of light switches and laundry and things. I’m sure that was part of it.