# Dear Wiccans: get over yourselves **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 16, 2009, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-wiccans-get-over-yourselves/499968 "2009-06-16T17:55:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2009, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-wiccans-get-over-yourselves/499968/181 "2009-06-18T17:48:16Z")
People defending **magick** : how do you feel about **vampyre**? ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2009, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-wiccans-get-over-yourselves/499968/182 "2009-06-18T18:12:41Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Nope, nothing invested, it just rubs me the wrong way. Apparently people posting to message boards with opionions that are at odds with yours have the same effect on you. I don’t feel nauseated, if that’s what you’re asking. > [@](#): > > And is there anything surprising about someone scoffing at Wiccans in a thread started to… scoff at Wiccans? No, and I suppose I shouldn’t be surprised by your act of “look-at-me-I’m-so-reasonable-and-scientific-I-get-physically-ill-by-the-word-‘magick’”. But I won’t bother you with that again. I’m past it. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2009, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-wiccans-get-over-yourselves/499968/183 "2009-06-18T18:19:09Z")
> [@Lord\_Ashtar](#): > > No, and I suppose I shouldn’t be surprised by your act of “look-at-me-I’m-so-reasonable-and-scientific-I-get-physically-ill-by-the-word-‘magick’”. I really do wonder where you’re getting all this “look at me” stuff from–I just posted to comment that I’ll stop thinking it’s ridiculous when they demonstrate that it isn’t. For someone posting on the SDMB, you sure are having a pretty negative reaction to what amounts to “Cite?” > [@](#): > > But I won’t bother you with that again. I’m past it. Aw, and we were having so much fun. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2009, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-wiccans-get-over-yourselves/499968/184 "2009-06-18T18:25:49Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Not particularly. They’re a very nice fan and fainting couch. If it would make you feel more comfortable, I could decorate them with footballs, beer, and naked ladies. He’s gay, so I suspect he wouldn’t get much out of the naked ladies. Beer and footballs, perhaps. As such, I recommend you hook me up with a beer/football/naked lady-decorated fan and fainting couch forthwith. Since, you know, you’ve apparently got them lying around. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2009, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-wiccans-get-over-yourselves/499968/185 "2009-06-18T18:34:08Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Beer and footballs, perhaps. Tanqueray and tonics and Lady Gaga for me, please. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2009, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-wiccans-get-over-yourselves/499968/186 "2009-06-18T18:39:29Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > As such, I recommend you hook me up with a beer/football/naked lady-decorated fan and fainting couch forthwith. Since, you know, you’ve apparently got them lying around. Well, not \*yet \*I don’t. > [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > Tanqueray and tonics and Lady Gaga for me, please. While we’re at it, would you care to swap your getting mistaken for a woman on these boards for my getting mistaken for a man? I’m sure we could work out some sort of reciprocal arrangement to our mutual benefit. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2009, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-wiccans-get-over-yourselves/499968/187 "2009-06-18T21:35:41Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Lots of people used to think the sun revolved around the earth. It does actually. If you’re standing on the Earth and you stand in one place, the Sun will move across the sky. If the Earth is rotating then things outside of it are also moving around it. It just depends on which point you arbitrarily consider fixed. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2009, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-wiccans-get-over-yourselves/499968/188 "2009-06-18T21:38:35Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > In my estimation, the Wiccan movement is a fledgling attempt to reach a spiritual awareness that is free of the taint of theology, worship as communion rather than adoration and obedience. They utterly lack the discipline of a hierarchy and a set doctrine, which is all to the good, so far as I can tell. > > As for the relentless rationalism of those who rush for the chance to publicly preen and polish their skepticism…well, thats all quite good, no doubt, the rational mind is a marvelous tool, as a hammer is the best approach to a nail. But if all that is good about being human could be reduced to rationalist principles, adding machines would write poetry and coo over a smiling baby. More to heaven and earth, and all that. Reason is a whore. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2009, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-wiccans-get-over-yourselves/499968/189 "2009-06-18T21:40:05Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > IIRC, a discussion in a seminar I once took on irony came to the conclusion that exactly one thing in that song might actually qualify as ironic. > > SO, NO, ALANIS, I DON’T THINK. Which one was it? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2009, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-wiccans-get-over-yourselves/499968/190 "2009-06-18T21:41:09Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > People defending **magick** : how do you feel about **vampyre**? It’s not a common and accepted usage, it’s one that is generally scoffed at by even people who are into vampires. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2009, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-wiccans-get-over-yourselves/499968/191 "2009-06-18T21:48:31Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Which one was it? A drawer filled with ten thousand spoons–when all you need is a knife. I believe it is from Aeschylus in _Orestes Amakhaira_. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2009, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-wiccans-get-over-yourselves/499968/192 "2009-06-18T22:01:30Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > It does actually. If you’re standing on the Earth and you stand in one place, the Sun will move across the sky. If the Earth is rotating then things outside of it are also moving around it. It just depends on which point you arbitrarily consider fixed. No, the sun _appears to move across the sky as the Earth rotates on its axis_. The only way your argument works is if you are also prepared to claim that your television is full of tiny people who perform for you. > [@mswas](#): > > Which one was it? I think we said the guy who was afraid of flying who died in a plane crash, but it was borderline. Basically it came down to, you would necessarily expect that he would not die in a plane crash, because it’s a very safe method of travel when compared to, say, automobiles, but his irrational fear ended up being justified in his particular case. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2009, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-wiccans-get-over-yourselves/499968/193 "2009-06-18T22:08:32Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > I think we said the guy who was afraid of flying who died in a plane crash, but it was borderline. Basically it came down to, you would necessarily expect that he would not die in a plane crash, because it’s a very safe method of travel when compared to, say, automobiles, but his irrational fear ended up being justified in his particular case. Also, the old guy buying the lottery tickets. (“An old man turned 98 / He won the lotter-eeeee / And died the next day”) What’s an old guy going to do with all that money? He’s going to die soon anyway! It exemplifies the hamartia of man’s hubristic neglect of his own mortality. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2009, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-wiccans-get-over-yourselves/499968/194 "2009-06-18T22:45:43Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > No, the sun _appears to move across the sky as the Earth rotates on its axis_. The only way your argument works is if you are also prepared to claim that your television is full of tiny people who perform for you. No, it’s all relative, if the Earth is spinning, then everything outside of it is also rotating around it. It’s hardly the same as little people in the TV. > [@](#): > > I think we said the guy who was afraid of flying who died in a plane crash, but it was borderline. Basically it came down to, you would necessarily expect that he would not die in a plane crash, because it’s a very safe method of travel when compared to, say, automobiles, but his irrational fear ended up being justified in his particular case. Right, got it. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2009, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-wiccans-get-over-yourselves/499968/195 "2009-06-18T22:46:34Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > No, the sun _appears to move across the sky as the Earth rotates on its axis_. The only way your argument works is if you are also prepared to claim that your television is full of tiny people who perform for you. Why pick the one frame of reference over another? Everything is perfectly still, from the appropriate frame of reference, and moving whatever way one likes from another frame of reference. There isn’t any particular objective fixed center of the universe or still velocity or any such thing. To adopt the perspective that the Earth revolves around the sun rather than the sun revolving around the Earth or both revolving around some third point or what have you is a matter of custom, not brute fact; custom made natural by the fact the motion of the other planets becomes perhaps more easily described from this perspective, but custom nonetheless. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2009, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-wiccans-get-over-yourselves/499968/196 "2009-06-18T22:47:03Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > It does actually. If you’re standing on the Earth and you stand in one place, the Sun will move across the sky. If the Earth is rotating then things outside of it are also moving around it. It just depends on which point you arbitrarily consider fixed. Never heard of [inertial frames of reference](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertial_frame), eh? ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2009, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-wiccans-get-over-yourselves/499968/197 "2009-06-18T22:48:47Z")
> [@Indistinguishable](#): > > To adopt the perspective that the Earth revolves around the sun rather than the sun revolving around the Earth or both revolving around some third point or what have you is a matter of custom, not brute fact; custom made natural by the fact the motion of the other planets becomes perhaps more easily described from this perspective, but custom nonetheless. I would’ve thought choosing a frame that necessitates no fictitious forces is rather more rational than mere custom. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2009, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-wiccans-get-over-yourselves/499968/198 "2009-06-18T22:58:33Z")
_shrugs_. I didn’t deny that some things become easier to express from the perspective which has fixed the sun as the center round which the Earth goes, rather than the other way. If that’s what you mean by saying that this is genuinely, in some objective sense, the case, and not the sun going round the Earth instead, alright. If we were sticking to a Newtonian framework, that’d be all I could say in my defense. But, in a GRy framework, I can go a bit further: gravity’s as good as any other “fictitious” force, and fixing the sun or anything else as the center hardly removes it from the equation. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2009, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-wiccans-get-over-yourselves/499968/199 "2009-06-18T23:42:39Z")
> [@Dead\_Badger](#): > > Never heard of [inertial frames of reference](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertial_frame), eh? Actually no, I didn’t know the term as such, but I already understood the concept. I understand why people say that the Earth revolves around the Sun. In our current physics model the Earth is a subordinate entity to the Sun. I’m just making a point that from a subjective reference point perspective it is not incorrect to say that the Sun moves through the sky. I am not describing anything supernatural, just pointing out that it’s not unreasonable for a human being to say that the Sun is rotating around the Earth. To be honest it’s just a really nitpicky thing I have about people who use heliocentrism as a way to be pretentiously pedantic. If the Earth is revolving then the everything else is orbiting around it. I am using a non-inertial frame of reference, but I am not claiming any supernatural cause, just moving my fixed reference point. In this case the fixed reference point is me. I am still, everything else is moving. 😉 That doesn’t change or deny accepted physics in any way shape or form. Relative to one another, both I an the Sun are in motion. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-wiccans-get-over-yourselves/499968/200 "2009-06-19T00:01:37Z")
> [@](#): > > People defending magick: how do you feel about vampyre? [music] Scoff, the Magick Vampyre Lived by the sea And Frolicked in the Noisome Mists In Transyl-vain-iii-eeee![/music] .. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-wiccans-get-over-yourselves/499968.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-wiccans-get-over-yourselves/499968.md?page=11)