# Dear Woman video - pretty amazing **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 8, 2011, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-woman-video-pretty-amazing/577620 "2011-04-08T02:34:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-woman-video-pretty-amazing/577620/441 "2011-04-12T16:27:08Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > No, it is exactly on topic - that you brought up. That the OP can be in a way “defended”…Not to simply assert, without any evidence whatsoever, that white people are comparable to Bernie Madoff’s wife, and thus subject to some sort of guilt - which does no good to anyone. Is acknowledgement of historical inequality such a bad thing? And while not nearly as bad as **Stoid** makes out, we still live in unequal times. The world still has plenty of **Rigamarole** ’s. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-woman-video-pretty-amazing/577620/442 "2011-04-12T16:28:20Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Based on slavery? Not so many. But my parents grew up under Jim Crow and involuntarily benefited from its restrictions on where black people could work, what money black people could earn, and the like. Police protection is far better in my town in the white neighborhoods than in the black neighborhoods. My students from black families are much likelier to be growing up in poverty, with all the educational problems that entails, than my white students. > > Acknowledging the practical benefits of whiteness doesn’t mean feeling guilt for them. Most of those benefits are involuntary. But they’re there. > > Contrast these two exercises: [the benefits of being male](http://www.starhawk.org/activism/trainer-resources/benefits-male.html) and [the benefits of being white](http://www.starhawk.org/activism/trainer-resources/benefits-white.html). AFAICT, the first one is much weaker than the second, for a couple of reasons: > > 1. Inequities continue through generations much more when the inequity is race-based, since they apply only to particular families and they affect the upbringing of the next generation in terms of material wealth and education and similar factors. Gender-based inequities apply to most families, meaning that once they’re fixed, they have few effects on the next generation. > 2. When I read the race-based list, I agreed with a majority of the statements. When I read the gender-based list, there were relatively few that applied to me. > > Again, in no way am I saying that there’s no sexism now, nor am I saying that anti-male sexism is causing just as much harm in the real world as anti-female sexism is. Anti-male sexism, like in this video, is just stupid and annoying and occasionally causes isolated problems, whereas anti-female sexism causes a whole shitload of institutionalized problems. > > But I am saying that there’s no collective guilt, not even from people that involuntarily benefit from sexist institutions, because that idea is incoherent. No-one is arguing that past generations did not, in some _overall or average sense_, benefit from racism and sexism (if they were the right race or sex, of course). However, overall and average does not necessarily translate into direct and compelling to particular individuals, who did not necessarily personally receive any advantages, or feel any identity with the “average” they are grouped with. Take my immediate family. My father’s father grew up on a farm in New Brunswick, mucking out cows for a living. How exactly did he benefit from being White and Male? My mother’s family, OTOH, fled Romania during WW1, came with the clothes on their backs - and were despised as filthy east european Jews. They did sweated labour as factory workers in the garment industry, both sexes. Not getting much male white priviledge there. My wife’s family - well, on her mom’s side they were fortunate enough to survive Stalin’s Ukranian famine; during WW2, her grandfather on mother’s side dissapeared on literaly the first day of the war (he was in the Soviet army, in occupied Poland). They survived the war by a miracle and were moved by Stalin to what used to be a heavily German part of Poland (to replace the Germans who had been “ethnically cleansed”), only to escape to the West without a dime in the '50s, from whence they moved to Canada. On her dad’s side, they came of a long line of Ukranian farmers in Saskatchewan. The point? That not all narratives, when looked at as _individuals_, conform to the stereotype of racual or sexual advantage. Thus it makes no sense - and indeed perpetuates racism and sexism - to redress the balance in terms of race and sex, as opposed to individual circumstance. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-woman-video-pretty-amazing/577620/443 "2011-04-12T16:31:58Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Is acknowledgement of historical inequality such a bad thing? The world still has plenty of **Rigamarole** ’s. Wait, you don’t want an “apology”: > [@](#): > > I agree there is nothing to apologize for But rather, you want an “aknowledgement”. What exactly does such a creature as an “aknowledgement” do, which is not an “apology”? Yeah, most reasonable people will aknowledge that there exists a history of sexism and racism. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-woman-video-pretty-amazing/577620/444 "2011-04-12T16:32:13Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > No-one is arguing that past generations did not, in some _overall or average sense_, benefit from racism and sexism (if they were the right race or sex, of course). However, overall and average does not necessarily translate into direct and compelling to particular individuals, who did not necessarily personally receive any advantages, or feel any identity with the “average” they are grouped with. I take it you don’t know any women that work for Walmart. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-woman-video-pretty-amazing/577620/445 "2011-04-12T16:33:39Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > I take it you don’t know any women that work for Walmart. ?? ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-woman-video-pretty-amazing/577620/446 "2011-04-12T16:33:54Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Yeah, most reasonable people will aknowledge that there exists a history of sexism and racism. And many yet think it _is_ history. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-woman-video-pretty-amazing/577620/447 "2011-04-12T16:35:29Z")
Being white and being male has absolute advantages in the United States. That doesn’t mean perpetrating sexism is somehow making up for it, nor does it mean that mealy-mouthed apologies do jack shit for those of us who haven’t had the advantages of both. Basically, my point is this: Don’t apologize for sexism. Stop being sexist. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-woman-video-pretty-amazing/577620/448 "2011-04-12T16:38:10Z")
Fair enough. (that was the best I could do **Stoid** ) ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-woman-video-pretty-amazing/577620/449 "2011-04-12T16:54:23Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > My father’s father grew up on a farm in New Brunswick, mucking out cows for a living. Where abouts? My mom’s family is form St. Stephen and Oak Bay (my maternal grandfather was from St. Stephen and my maternal grandmother was from Fredericton). ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-woman-video-pretty-amazing/577620/450 "2011-04-12T16:56:09Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > The problem with the earth mother meme is that it fails to recognize that motherhood is a two edged sword, passing on societal norms and individual behaviours, good or bad, from one generation to the next. We are all part of society, and to a significant degree products of our society, which is formed by women and men, not just men, so blaming all the ills of the society on men, as Stoid and that pathetic video attempt to do, is facile and bigoted. I slogged through 9 pages just waiting in anticipation to bring up this point, and here at the 11th hour you and **LHOD** have beaten me to it. Nevertheless, this is a problem I run into whenever confronted with the concept that men are culpable as regards the culturally-driven gender inequities in our society. The primary influences on boys in our society are mothers and teachers - almost exclusively female influences for most boys for most of their childhood. I don’t disregard the significant influence of cultural expectations on how women carry out those roles, and that they may be affected by established beliefs and feelings. (My grandmother, for instance, would refuse to be seen by a female physician.) Nevertheless, if women are excused for their behaviors and their perpetuation of the problem because that’s the way they were raised, why should men alone feel compelled to apologize and to feel guilty? **NB** : I do not like inequalities of any kind, and I think that there remain issues to be rectified in our current society. I think, however, that men and women share in the responsibilities to change them. On a tangential point as to whether men should aspire to take on and demonstrate more feminine traits, I would note that, having picked up a few of the books my wife likes to read (the ones with various versions of Fabio on the covers), when women write fiction for other women that is focused on relationships, they don’t tend to write about women lusting after some guy’s sensitivity and intuition. They don’t have female characters describing with longing some guy being in touch with the Earth, valuing the here and now while eschewing goals, or listening to their bodies as regards sleep, eating and play. The same is somewhat true in reality as well. Plenty of sensitive, thoughtful, introspective guys can tell you how well they competed for attention from girls with guys who more prominently manifested traits more associated with masculinity. Yes, of course these women as writers and readers and natural selectors are themselves the result of the culture they grew up in. I’m just not sure how they as members of the category of Women get a pass in being responsible or as potential agents of change. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-woman-video-pretty-amazing/577620/451 "2011-04-12T17:05:08Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Yes, of course these women as writers and readers and natural selectors are themselves the result of the culture they grew up in. I’m just not sure how they as members of the category of Women get a pass in being responsible or as potential agents of change. I don’t think they do or should. I’m not a mindless victim of male hegemony. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-woman-video-pretty-amazing/577620/452 "2011-04-12T17:26:16Z")
> [@spifflog](#): > > In all sincerity, you should try to discover what it is in your own personal history or psyche that makes you crave this type of condescending pat on the head, especially one as lame and fake as this. You need to back off on this sort of personal shot–now. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![spifflog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@spifflog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spifflog)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-woman-video-pretty-amazing/577620/453 "2011-04-12T17:46:29Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > You need to back off on this sort of personal shot–now. > > [/Moderating] I was really trying to be constructive, and I’m seen worse here in this thread, but OK. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-woman-video-pretty-amazing/577620/454 "2011-04-12T17:52:30Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I don’t think they do or should. I’m not a mindless victim of male hegemony. But we tried so hard! Or perhaps you’re just not aware of how victimized you really are. Mwooo haa haa haa! ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-woman-video-pretty-amazing/577620/455 "2011-04-12T19:39:24Z")
> [@spifflog](#): > > When 99% of the people are telling you something is sanctimonious crap, you should at least consider it. Sometimes it’s best to admit you’re wrong and move on, instead of trying to defend the indefensible. Consider _what_, exactly? Consider that maybe I shouldn’t appreciate it anymore? Why? Is that how you decide what makes sense to you, by counting who shows up to tell you something is garbage in a Straight Dope thread? Because I have news: that is not 99% of “The People” at all, that’s a very specific self-selected group who have made it a point spend their time and energy trying to outdo each other in how much ridicule they can pack into as few words as possible. That’s about as value-free as it gets. If anything: > [@](#): > > “Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect”- Mark Twain I learned of it through people I know, respect, love and care about deeply as some of the most incredible human beings I have ever had the privilege to have in my life, one of whom has been among my dearest loved friends since we were children and whom I consider a great teacher to me because he is a truly special human being who brings light wherever he goes. He has the most ready laugh, the most accepting and loving spirit that it’s impossible to avoid feeling alive and joyful around him. He reminds me exactly of the Dalai Lama, but he’s just a regular man leading a normal life, not a guru or anything special at all.\*\*\* H\*\*\*_ **is** _ opinion I value enormously. If _ **he** _ hated it, that would have meant something. The reaction of people in general that I have encountered has been mixed. None of it has been anything like the hostility and ugliness in this thread, but no news there. It’s been closer to my own: Great idea, sticky execution. As for “defending” it: I haven’t been, it doesn’t need defending. Thats why I put it MPSIMS. Some mod decided to move it to GD. I don’t have any interest in debating it and never did. Thought it had value, decided to share. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-woman-video-pretty-amazing/577620/456 "2011-04-12T19:43:44Z")
Enough. Closed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-woman-video-pretty-amazing/577620.md?page=22)