# Death by grapes? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 27, 2010, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-by-grapes/530660 "2010-02-27T17:16:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![si\_blakely](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@si\_blakely](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/si_blakely)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2010, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-by-grapes/530660/41 "2010-03-01T15:20:06Z")
> [@Joe Frickin Friday](#): > > People who jump from the Golden Gate bridge don’t die from drowning, they die from blunt-force trauma - broken bones, shattered skulls, that sort of thing. When you hit the water at 120 MPH, you experience a decel of several hundred g’s, and it’s just too much for your body to take. Fact is, water is dense, and if it hits you hard enough, it doesn’t particularly matter that it’s a liquid; it’ll do damage. Which is to say that the structure of the grapes (or lack thereof) isn’t a particularly difficult problem, as long as we can get them moving fast enough. When someone hits water at terminal velocity, their biggest problem is the surface tension and inertia of the water that they hit - they cannot displace water fast enough, because the rest of the water gets in the way. People have survived falling into reedy swamps - the reeds break up surface tension, reduce density, and the fallee hits the reeds first so that the water surface is disturbed before they impact it. Two pounds of grapes mushed does not have the sort of surface tension or bulk mass for inertia to come in to play - and if you make it go too fast, the bag will rip and the mass will just break up due to air resistance. And if you posit some super-strong plastic bag to hold the grapes - then just use it to suffocate the victim. It will be quicker and you can eat the grapes while they asphyxiate. Si ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2010, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-by-grapes/530660/42 "2010-03-01T16:12:56Z")
Are you sure about surface tension? I thought the issue with jumping into water was that the water is just too _heavy_ to move out of the way quick enough, not too sticky - and that jumping into boggy ground was better because of compressible gas pockets inside living vegetation and trapped gasesous products of decomposition. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2010, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-by-grapes/530660/43 "2010-03-01T16:23:06Z")
> [@si\_blakely](#): > > When someone hits water at terminal velocity, their biggest problem is the surface tension and inertia of the water that they hit - they cannot displace water fast enough, because the rest of the water gets in the way. Surface tension is measured in _milli_Newtons per meter; when analyzing an event involving _kilo_Newtons of force, it’s negligible. As you rightly note, inertia is the key - and a grape at 120 MPH has momentum/energy approximately equal to a same-sized blob of water traveling at the same speed (since they are of nearly the same density). Get hit with a single grape at that speed, and you will have a severe bruise. Get hit in the abdomen with a two-pound bolus of grapes at that speed (or even less - I’m suggesting 70-80 MPH), and you will experience massive, possibly damaging displacement of internal organs. > [@](#): > > People have survived falling into reedy swamps - the reeds break up surface tension, reduce density, and the fallee hits the reeds first so that the water surface is disturbed before they impact it. I’d be curious to know more about an example case, i.e. how high did they fall from, what orientation were they in at impact, and so on. There may be a density reduction if there is a mat of decomposing reeds (which have air chambers), but surface tension is still irrelevant. > [@](#): > > Two pounds of grapes mushed does not have the sort of surface tension or bulk mass for inertia to come in to play… 😕 It’s got a whopping two pounds - 900 grams - of bulk mass. Ever ridden a motorcycle, and gotten hit in the arm by a bug at 60 MPH? That’s a fraction of a single grape, and it can hurt like hell. > [@](#): > > and if you make it go too fast, the bag will rip and the mass will just break up due to air resistance. Agreed, the bag strength is marginal. But I can envision holding a bag of grapes outside my car window at 80 MPH without it shredding, so as long as the sling force isn’t too great (use a long sling harness), it should hold up. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2010, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-by-grapes/530660/44 "2010-03-01T16:34:16Z")
Just had to say how much I really love this place . . . .LOL! ---
**Author:** ![Snickers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@Snickers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snickers)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2010, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-by-grapes/530660/45 "2010-03-01T17:30:47Z")
If you could somehow make it so they couldn’t open their mouth (I’m thinking duct tape, but that seems disallowed by the OP), it’d be easy. Grapes up the nose - suffocation! Maybe lots and lots of grapes in their mouth, then grapes up the nose? That could work. ---
**Author:** ![Mama\_Zappa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@Mama\_Zappa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mama_Zappa)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2010, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-by-grapes/530660/46 "2010-03-01T17:44:14Z")
> [@The\_Scrivener](#): > > Does the would-be victim also have hemophilia? Nothing like a little uncontrolled internal hemorrhaging to speed things along… > … Interestingly, I popped in to offer just such a comment - only my thinking was some of those grape stems can be a bit scratchy. If you were to smash some grapes, leading to exposed stem bits, you might cause some significant bleeding. Of course even a hemophiliac wouldn’t _die_ just from a few scratches (I think… I think usually the bleeding can be stopped eventually) but if he were so discombobulated at the bizarre attack, that he stumbled away, and fell, and hit his head, then yes indeed the cause of death might be attack-by-grape. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2010, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-by-grapes/530660/47 "2010-03-01T17:47:32Z")
> [@Snickers](#): > > If you could somehow make it so they couldn’t open their mouth (I’m thinking duct tape, but that seems disallowed by the OP), it’d be easy. Grapes up the nose - suffocation! > > Maybe lots and lots of grapes in their mouth, then grapes up the nose? That could work. OP has specificially asked about _beating_ a victim to death with grapes. In addition to head or abdnomal impacts that I suggested earlier, I now also suggest a neck impact so as to induce a [tracheobronchial injury;](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tracheobronchial_injury) The resultant tracheal swelling may be enough to cause asphyxiation. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2010, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-by-grapes/530660/48 "2010-03-01T17:51:18Z")
QED - SMush the bag of grapes on the floor - insure the victim steps in the now wet area and slips/falls hitting his head on the remaining grapes. I don’t know why we must assume that the grapes must be thrown at the victim - simply reverse course and throw the victim at the grapes! ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2010, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-by-grapes/530660/49 "2010-03-01T18:03:42Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > Just had to say how much I really love this place . . . .LOL! Yes, any place where somebody asks if you can beat someone with a bag of grapes, and is seriously responded to by people who begin devising ways to accelerate bags of grapes to 120 mph, and then nobody points out how absurd the concept of super-speed grape weapons, is a rather fun place. ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2010, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-by-grapes/530660/50 "2010-03-01T18:28:28Z")
Maybe if we used a 1920’s-style death grape… ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2010, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-by-grapes/530660/51 "2010-03-01T21:18:00Z")
This thread could really have used a “NEED ANSWER FAST” tag in the topic. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2010, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-by-grapes/530660/52 "2010-03-01T21:44:27Z")
> [@Joe Frickin Friday](#): > > . . . a neck impact so as to induce a [tracheobronchial injury;](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tracheobronchial_injury) The resultant tracheal swelling may be enough to cause asphyxiation. Yeah, what he said, with the tracheo-whatsit . . . ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2010, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-by-grapes/530660/53 "2010-03-01T21:55:34Z")
> [@Joe Frickin Friday](#): > > Agreed, the bag strength is marginal. But I can envision holding a bag of grapes outside my car window at 80 MPH without it shredding, so as long as the sling force isn’t too great (use a long sling harness), it should hold up. As you note, it’s not the speed, it’s the acceleration/deceleration. You can probably accelerate it slowly enough to hold together, but the deceleration when it hits will break any normal bag. So that one hit better be impressive. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2010, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-by-grapes/530660/54 "2010-03-01T23:05:55Z")
> [@Hypno-Toad](#): > > Ah, the things I’ve done for love… > > You might not be able to kill with a bag of grapes, but you can with a bag of grape-nuts. But then you’d be a cereal killer. > [@Hypno-Toad](#): > > Maybe if we used a 1920’s-style death grape… Dude, you are seriously getting your own level of either Hell or Heaven. Not sure which, yet, but you are _definitely_ getting your own level. [ALL GLORY TO THE HYPNO-TOAD!](http://r33b.net/) ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2010, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-by-grapes/530660/55 "2010-03-02T12:50:27Z")
Thank you. I try. ---
**Author:** ![si\_blakely](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@si\_blakely](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/si_blakely)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2010, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-by-grapes/530660/56 "2010-03-02T15:23:24Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Are you sure about surface tension? I thought the issue with jumping into water was that the water is just too _heavy_ to move out of the way quick enough, not too sticky - and that jumping into boggy ground was better because of compressible gas pockets inside living vegetation and trapped gasesous products of decomposition. I am sure you are right about surface tension - it is a factor in some elements of water behaviour, but at the forces involved with a full body impact, it is insignificant compared to the inertia. Actually, this would make a great video experiment for your web site - a bag of grapes, a watermelon or pumpkin a video camera… [QUOTE=Joe Fricken Friday] I’d be curious to know more about an example case, i.e. how high did they fall from, what orientation were they in at impact, and so on. There may be a density reduction if there is a mat of decomposing reeds (which have air chambers), but surface tension is still irrelevant. [/QUOTE] I only can find a [partial link](http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-17477396.html) to the report I am thinking of, but the jumper was vertical on impact due to the streaming reserve. There were more details at the time, but I can’t find a local news archive. > [@](#): > > A Rotorua skydiver is in hospital with a broken leg and pelvis after his main parachute failed to open and the reserve parachute opened only partially during a jump close to the city’s airport. Whanau Paneora, a parachute packer with the Tandem Skydiving Company, was injured when he landed in swamp near the end of the airport runway on Friday evening… It seems ironic that the parachute Whanua failed to pack correctly was the one he chose to jump with, but I bet he gets all the rest he packs correct. Si ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2010, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-by-grapes/530660/57 "2010-03-02T16:27:19Z")
> [@si\_blakely](#): > > I only can find a [partial link](http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-17477396.html) to the report I am thinking of, but the jumper was vertical on impact due to the streaming reserve. …and that streaming reserve chute, depending on its configuration, probably drastically lowered his freefall speed. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2010, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-by-grapes/530660/58 "2010-03-06T05:18:37Z")
What if you have a whole bunch of bags of grapes, still in a wooden crate? ---
**Author:** ![Fastidiots](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@Fastidiots](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fastidiots)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2010, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-by-grapes/530660/59 "2010-03-06T06:19:00Z")
I think talking about the bag ripping is meaningless, because then you’re not talking about a bag of grapes, you’re talking about a bag. Be it that you have a crate of grapes or what have you, I think an infinite supply would be a given. I’m in the camp that enough bags of grapes with sufficient speed over a sufficiently long time with a sufficiently incapacitated victim would result in a grizzly and sweet murder scene. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2010, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-by-grapes/530660/60 "2010-03-06T07:12:52Z")
Having read the thread in all it’s glory and evaluated the suggestions in the spirit of the OP, that is, a person killing another person with a bunch of grapes in a supermarket bag, so far the best scenario would seem to be a MLB pitcher or other trained ‘thrower’ taking a bunch of grapes, re-tying the bundle into a compact dense package, and then throwing them as fast a possible into the victims neck. Does this sound about right? If so, we now need to know: How fast can a pitcher- softball may be helpful- throw a 2 lb weight? First cut - fast pitch softball throw a ball at 110-137 km/hr. Lets say 120 km per hour and a heavy end softball at 200g, gives us a kinetic energy of [1/2 mass x velocity squared = (0.2g/2\*(120,000m/3600s)^2) = 111 joules - how should we adjust this for the grapes of wrath? Next problem - how much energy can the trachea take? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-by-grapes/530660.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-by-grapes/530660.md?page=4)