# Death by grapes? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 27, 2010, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-by-grapes/530660 "2010-02-27T17:16:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Meow\_Max](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/59ef9b/32.png) [@Meow\_Max](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meow_Max)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2010, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-by-grapes/530660/61 "2010-03-06T07:15:12Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > F = M \* A > If you could accelerate the grapes to a high enough speed, you could do damage. All you need is this: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railgun](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railgun) In tests of the prototypes of this weapon, a plastic projectile the size of a soup can blew through 6 feet of steel… A bag of grapes at mach 7 would do a person nicely. ---
**Author:** ![waynemcdougall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b77776/32.png) [@waynemcdougall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waynemcdougall)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2010, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-by-grapes/530660/62 "2010-03-06T08:55:38Z")
> [@DCnDC](#): > > However, in _reality_, someone comes up to me with a bag of grapes and tries to hit me with it, even if it connects I will be able to react and stab that person in the eye before they can take another swing. That’s all I’m saying. Not my bag of grapes coming at you at 0.999999c you’re not. Not that I need another swing after you fail to react. ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2010, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-by-grapes/530660/63 "2010-03-08T20:45:12Z")
> [@Meow\_Max](#): > > A bag of grapes at mach 7 would do a person nicely. A whiff of grapeshot can be most effective. ---
**Author:** ![mufatango](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6a8cbe/32.png) [@mufatango](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mufatango)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2010, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-by-grapes/530660/64 "2010-03-08T21:51:28Z")
If you were to immobilize the victim and throw the bag of grapes at their chest repeatedly, eventually with luck you could probably induce [commotio cordis.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commotio_cordis) ---
**Author:** ![Darkmoor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a183cd/32.png) [@Darkmoor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darkmoor)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2010, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-by-grapes/530660/65 "2010-03-08T23:26:23Z")
I think some of the posters here are on the right track. We know that a roughly 2lb object can decapitate someone if there’s enough force behind it (check out the Mythbusters episode 80 “Big Rig Myths”—they managed to decapitate a human analogue with a roughly 2lb hunk of big rig tire.) We also know that the rigidity of the object doesn’t make much of a difference (Mythbusters 14, “Myths Revisited”—the only thing that matters is mass and acceleration.) So now we’re left with the question: how do you get a bag of grapes moving fast enough to do enough damage to be lethal? The simple answer is that you don’t. Instead, you convince your intended victim that mailbox baseball is a great way to pass a lazy Friday night, then wait in the bushes and bean him in the face as he zips past. Of course, I do like the idea of slapping a bag of grapes into a sabot and stuffing the whole thing into a railgun…but somehow I don’t see the Navy letting me play with one just to “try out some grape-related ideas. (Come on guys, sustainable weaponry—you know the treehuggers would love that. Wouldn’t they? Guys? Why are the men in white coats here?)” P.S. Yeah, yeah, I know, Mythbusters isn’t exactly the pinnacle of peer-reviewed science…but really. We’re talking about beating someone to death with a bag of grapes. Nuff said. ---
**Author:** ![KNO3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ea5d25/32.png) [@KNO3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KNO3)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2010, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-by-grapes/530660/66 "2010-03-09T03:13:16Z")
> [@Darkmoor](#): > > I think some of the posters here are on the right track. We know that a roughly 2lb object can decapitate someone if there’s enough force behind it (check out the Mythbusters episode 80 “Big Rig Myths”—they managed to decapitate a human analogue with a roughly 2lb hunk of big rig tire.) We also know that the rigidity of the object doesn’t make much of a difference (Mythbusters 14, “Myths Revisited”—the only thing that matters is mass and acceleration.) > > So now we’re left with the question: how do you get a bag of grapes moving fast enough to do enough damage to be lethal? The simple answer is that you don’t. Instead, you convince your intended victim that mailbox baseball is a great way to pass a lazy Friday night, then wait in the bushes and bean him in the face as he zips past. > > Of course, I do like the idea of slapping a bag of grapes into a sabot and stuffing the whole thing into a railgun…but somehow I don’t see the Navy letting me play with one just to “try out some grape-related ideas. (Come on guys, sustainable weaponry—you know the treehuggers would love that. Wouldn’t they? Guys? Why are the men in white coats here?)” > > P.S. Yeah, yeah, I know, Mythbusters isn’t exactly the pinnacle of peer-reviewed science…but really. We’re talking about beating someone to death with a bag of grapes. Nuff said. I wonder if the mythbusters still have their chicken cannon? Oh hey Old Moses the civil war cannon is still out there as well… And there are a lot of Punkin Chunking rigs out there… Just gotta double wrap the grapes, sabot it and you are good to go. Yeah it can kill. If you want to do it manually you need to buy some garbage bags as well and quad wrap it. It’ll work. It’ll take time, so you might have to tie down your victim. Oh hey. Can I ferment and bottle it first? ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2010, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-by-grapes/530660/67 "2010-03-09T15:37:30Z")
> [@Darkmoor](#): > > We also know that the rigidity of the object doesn’t make much of a difference (Mythbusters 14, “Myths Revisited”—the only thing that matters is mass and acceleration.) I would say that rigidity doesn’t matter… _once you get a high enough mass and/or acceleration_. To say it “doesn’t make much of a difference,” however, is misleading, IMO: would you rather have someone toss a brick at your face or an equivalent amount of water at the same accelleration? ---
**Author:** ![Darkmoor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a183cd/32.png) [@Darkmoor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darkmoor)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2010, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-by-grapes/530660/68 "2010-03-09T18:06:11Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > I would say that rigidity doesn’t matter… _once you get a high enough mass and/or acceleration_. To say it “doesn’t make much of a difference,” however, is misleading, IMO: would you rather have someone toss a brick at your face or an equivalent amount of water at the same accelleration? Fine, fine. You’re right. I wasn’t specific enough. In this case, assuming you’re only trying for one really big hit rather than repeated whackings, the rigidity doesn’t make much of a difference, as long as the container is strong enough to impart all of its force before rupturing. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2010, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-by-grapes/530660/69 "2010-03-09T18:49:40Z")
> [@JessWess](#): > > To clarify, it is in reference to the bags of grapes at the grocery store, they cannot be frozen, > [@casdave](#): > > I’ll tell you how to do it later, but I don’t want you to start wining about the answer. > [@casdave](#): > > OK, since you are all clamouring for the answer, freeze them first. > [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Bzzzzt. Prohibited by the OP. Classic! ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2010, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-by-grapes/530660/70 "2010-03-09T19:02:36Z")
> [@casdave](#): > > I’ll tell you how to do it later, but I don’t want you to start wining about the answer. I figured “wining” was a hint to ferment the grapes, then kill the target by alcohol poisoning. ---
**Author:** ![ajdebosco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@ajdebosco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ajdebosco)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2010, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-by-grapes/530660/71 "2010-03-09T21:06:09Z")
Good ol’ Issac Newton gave us his second law of motion for just these kind of cases. The mass is a given,(roughly 2lbs. or just shy of a kilo, I believe), the acceleration may have its upper limits around a couple dozen meters per second before the bag would shred before impact and scatter the contents. The resulting force in these parameters would certainly cause a whole world of hurt if directed to a vulnerable portion of the anatomy, (solar plexus, throat, kidneys, groin, etc.) possibly even fatal. I would strongly advise against attempting this on a human being though, or else Tom J… _Then it don’t matter. I’ll be around in the dark-I’ll be eveywhere. Wherever you can look-wherever there’s a fight, so hungry people can eat, I’ll be there. Wherever there’s a cop beatin’ up a guy, I’ll be there. I’ll be in the way guys yell when they’re mad. I’ll be in the way kids laugh when they’re hungry and they know supper’s ready, and when the people are eatin’ the stuff they raise and livin’ in the houses they build-I’ll be there, too._ ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2010, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-by-grapes/530660/72 "2010-03-10T02:11:08Z")
> [@ajdebosco](#): > > Good ol’ Issac Newton gave us his second law of motion for just these kind of cases. The mass is a given,(roughly 2lbs. or just shy of a kilo, I believe), the acceleration may have its upper limits around a couple dozen meters per second before the bag would shred before impact and scatter the contents. The resulting force in these parameters would certainly cause a whole world of hurt if directed to a vulnerable portion of the anatomy, (solar plexus, throat, kidneys, groin, etc.) possibly even fatal. But would it be fatal?This is the question I was getting at earlier. Choosing a target, say, the trachea, what’s the impact it will withstand? Can we get out bunch of grapes up to the necessary acceleration? We need data. I’m getting very disappointed with all the blahblahblah on this thread. The OP came to us for help killing his friends with a bag of grapes, and we haven’t given him anything substantial. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2010, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-by-grapes/530660/73 "2010-03-10T02:27:36Z")
> [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](#): > > But would it be fatal?This is the question I was getting at earlier. Choosing a target, say, the trachea, what’s the impact it will withstand? Can we get out bunch of grapes up to the necessary acceleration? > > We need data. I’m getting very disappointed with all the blahblahblah on this thread. The OP came to us for help killing his friends with a bag of grapes, and we haven’t given him anything substantial. I’m going to say no, given the implied constraints of the OP. “Beating” to me suggests a person swinging the bag himself, not using some rail gun, cannon, or other mechanical device. It also states a bag from the grocery store, so no reinforced bags that can hold up through multiple blows. Given that, could a person swing a bag of grapes hard enough to **reliably** cause death with a single blow? No way. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2010, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-by-grapes/530660/74 "2010-03-10T03:03:02Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > I’m going to say no, given the implied constraints of the OP. “Beating” to me suggests a person swinging the bag himself, not using some rail gun, cannon, or other mechanical device. It also states a bag from the grocery store, so no reinforced bags that can hold up through multiple blows. > > Given that, could a person swing a bag of grapes hard enough to **reliably** cause death with a single blow? No way. This is why I was postulating a softball pitcher and the trachea. But I need the trachea crush data. ---
**Author:** ![ragerdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d07c76/32.png) [@ragerdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ragerdude)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2010, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-by-grapes/530660/75 "2010-03-10T03:05:26Z")
We need The Grapist back to give us an expert opinion. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2010, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-by-grapes/530660/76 "2010-03-10T20:42:17Z")
_“Right-o, then… How to defend yourself against a man armed with a banana…”_ I would think the whirling grape-bag-on-a-rope-of-death might do it, but what’s the terminal swing velocity of grape baggies? Anything less, I doubt it. Not enough momentum transfer, since the payload is too malleable - it will slosh and distribute the impacty over time. As for bridge jumping - it’s the problem that water is not compressible, so does not get out of the way easily or fast enough. Have you ever watched fancy diving practice. I saw this machine that gave a burst of bubbles that carpet the surface at the time of impact. You get irregular surface and compressible water, so no serious belly flops. I have no personal experience to know if this is good or just better than a belly flop… ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2010, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-by-grapes/530660/77 "2010-03-10T21:42:13Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > \*As for bridge jumping - it’s the problem that water is not compressible, so does not get out of the way easily or fast enough. It’s not the incompressibility - it’s the density. See [Bernoulli’s incompressible flow equation.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernoulli%27s_equation#Incompressible_flow_equation) Yes, it’s _for_ incompressible flows, but the bulk modulus of the fluid doesn’t factor into it, and the density does. At impact, the ram pressure of the water (or the grape, if you disregard its superbly weak structure) is proportional to its density multiplied by the square of its impact velocity. > [@](#): > > Have you ever watched fancy diving practice. I saw this machine that gave a burst of bubbles that carpet the surface at the time of impact. You get irregular surface and compressible water, so no serious belly flops. I have no personal experience to know if this is good or just better than a belly flop… This has nothing to do with mitigating impact forces. According to [FINA rules,](http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=fina+%22mechanical+surface+agitation%22&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=) the purpose of surface agitation is the aid the divers in perceiving the location of the water’s surface prior to/during their descent. “Fancy” divers are expected to not belly flop, just as surely as gymnasts are expected to not land on their heads. ---
**Author:** ![KNO3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ea5d25/32.png) [@KNO3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KNO3)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2010, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-by-grapes/530660/78 "2010-03-11T04:00:36Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > I’m going to say no, given the implied constraints of the OP. “Beating” to me suggests a person swinging the bag himself, not using some rail gun, cannon, or other mechanical device. It also states a bag from the grocery store, so no reinforced bags that can hold up through multiple blows. > > Given that, could a person swing a bag of grapes hard enough to **reliably** cause death with a single blow? No way. Trash bags are found in a grocery store. ---
**Author:** ![ajdebosco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@ajdebosco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ajdebosco)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2010, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-by-grapes/530660/79 "2010-03-11T14:08:23Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > Given that, could a person swing a bag of grapes hard enough to **reliably** cause death with a single blow? No way. Yes, way, although it wouldn’t be instantaneous. I was researching trachea crush data, and dug out my old field medic emergency trauma manual. More than one fallen brother in my band had his airway obstructed by some blunt force trauma, that required emergency surgical procedures to provide a temporary airway. If the kilo weight bag of grapes was swung, olympic hammer throw style, directly into the throat of the victim, I am convinced the resulting trauma would undoubtedly cause the destruction of the structure that supports the larynx. This allows the airway to collapse during inspiration and to close. Worse, the blow to the larynx may cause severe swelling, although it may take as long as 48 hours for the swelling to close the airway. Without an emergency cricothyroidotomy, the victim would be unable to breathe, and thefore die as a result. Yes, a bag of grapes can cause death. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2010, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-by-grapes/530660/80 "2010-03-11T15:17:22Z")
> [@ajdebosco](#): > > Worse, the blow to the larynx may cause severe swelling, although it may take as long as 48 hours for the swelling to close the airway. Ayup. Knew a guy who was refereeing a hockey game when he got hit in the throat by the puck. He was fine immediately after the impact - no obvious structural damage or breathing difficulties - but during the night he woke up gasping for breath: the swelling was restricting his airway. Emergency surgery saved him, but forever altered his voice. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-by-grapes/530660.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-by-grapes/530660.md?page=5)