# Death for any felony: Let's bring it back **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 10, 2008, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-for-any-felony-lets-bring-it-back/455938 "2008-07-10T03:20:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2008, 10:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-for-any-felony-lets-bring-it-back/455938/61 "2008-07-10T10:10:35Z")
[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun] Was that comment made as a moderator? Can anybody announce that a poster’s posts do not need to be taken seriously? [/QUOTE] Don’t know about that, but I can certainly _think_ that one poster or another’s posts need not be taken seriously, and I’m thinkin’ that right about now. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2008, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-for-any-felony-lets-bring-it-back/455938/62 "2008-07-10T15:23:51Z")
[QUOTE=Alessan] A serious response - Another problem with the OP’s proposition is that it would cause murder rates to skyrocket. I mean, why settle for doing lesser crimes when a greater crime carries the same penalty? Why leave witnesses? Not to mention cop killings. A mean, if criminals thought all the cops were out to kill them, wouldn’t they shoot first and ask questions later? [/QUOTE] I asked earlier about crimes where the quantity of evidence was low. I mean, the OP generously gave us this example: > [@](#): > > It is important that we do not kill persons who are innocent. So I would require an extra finding by both the judge and the jury that there was no possibility that the accused was innocent. This would be for cases where there is extensive evidence. For example, a person robs a store at gunpoint and shots a shot. The gun is then matched to the bullet, and the gun is found in the accused person’s possession. A positive ID is made. There is video of the accused. He admitted what he did to witnesses. He was dumb enough to confess on video to the police. How many crimes actually have this much circumstantial evidence? If this is the standard, I predict the U.S. would see _fewer_ executions, not more. After all, how many people are on death row largely because of eyewitness testimony of “I saw him do it” as opposed to “he later told me he did it”? Heck, I’d support the the OP’s “extensive evidence” standard, because it represents a far tighter standard than what is now in effect. He never did reply to my inquiry about cases where evidence was not so extensive, though, so I assume the DP is off the table for those. If you’re robbing a warehouse at night and some watchman yells “Hey you!”, it’s not necessary to kill him because any felony (including burglary) puts you in the death house and you’ve nothing to lose. You’re better off just running away, because the watchman’s testimony won’t meet the proposed standard. He is essentially irrelevant because there is always the possibility he was wrong, and the standard is “no possibility” of innocence. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2008, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-for-any-felony-lets-bring-it-back/455938/63 "2008-07-10T15:37:31Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] (For example, a number of crimes, such as theft of livestock, did not become “felonies” until the third repetition of the act; in that case “felony” was used in the way we use “habitual criminal” today.) [/QUOTE] The definition of “felony” in English law at the time involved all crimes punishable by forfeiture of life or goods. From Story’s “Commentaries on the Constitution” > [@](#): > > § 1155. But the power is not merely to define and punish piracies, but felonies, and offences against the law of nations; and on this account, the power to define, as well as to punish, is peculiarly appropriate. It has been remarked, that felony is a term of loose signification, even in the common law; and of various import in the statute law of England. Mr. Justice Blackstone says, that felony, in the general acceptation of the English law, comprises every species of crime, which occasioned at common law the forfeiture of lands and goods. This most frequently happens in those crimes, for which a capital punishment either is, or was liable to be inflicted. All offences now capital by the English law are felonies; but there are still some offences, not capital, which are yet felonies, (such as suicide, petty larceny, and homicide by chance medley; ) that is, they subject the committers of them to some forfeiture, either of lands or goods. But the idea of capital punishment has now become so associated, in the English law, with the idea of felony, that if an act of parliament makes a new offence felony, the law implies, that it shall be punished with death, as well as with forfeiture. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2008, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-for-any-felony-lets-bring-it-back/455938/64 "2008-07-10T15:53:17Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] Mickey Mouse’s dog was a bore? [/QUOTE] No, silly, he was a _dog_. The three little pigs were boars. Presumably. I mean, if they were girl pigs, I never heard about it before. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2008, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-for-any-felony-lets-bring-it-back/455938/65 "2008-07-10T17:57:23Z")
[QUOTE=tim314] I tried to write a reply, I really did. But the fact that anyone could honestly think this is a good idea fills me with such a profound sense of despair that I can’t even bring myself to debate. You win. ☹ [/QUOTE] I’ll give it one more try: - There are complicated psychological and socioeconomic factors that contribute to people committing crimes. The OP’s apparent willingness to write off _all_ felons as irredeemably evil and deserving of death seems not only incredibly callous but woefully naive. - Furthermore, there will _inevitably_ be some people who are wrongly convicted, no matter how certain you require the judge or jury to be. Don’t you think the prosecutors, juries, and judges felt certain of the defendant’s guilt in the cases where people have been sentenced to death? And yet some of these people have been later exonerated by DNA evidence (and undoubtedly other innocents have been executed because DNA evidence failed to be tested, or there was no DNA recovered from the scene – unless you’re so foolish as to think that wrongful convictions _only_ happen in cases where there’s available DNA evidence.) By drastically increasing the number of death sentences, the OP’s proposal would drastically increase the number of wrongful deaths. - The OP’s proposal would also lead to far _more_ murders, as basically every felon would have no reason not to go down in a hail of gunfire. If you know you’ll get the death penalty for embezzling, you don’t have any reason to come quietly when the cops are knocking at your door. Plus, as someone mentioned above, there’s a lot more incentive to kill all the witnesses. - If the OP expects this plan to be a significant deterrent to crime, I think he’s being unrealistically optimistic. Criminals commit crimes expecting to get away with them – few are sitting there saying “Well, robbing this convenience store is worth spending the next decade in prison, just so long as they don’t kill me.” If on the other hand the OP thinks that we’ll do away with crime by killing all the criminals, then I suggest he think harder. There will always be more criminals, and killing people’s fathers, brothers, and friends will only increase their sense of outrage and their resentment of the government (and the richer and more privileged people they perceive to control it), which will only breed more crime. I realize I’m probably arguing with a brick wall here, since anyone who would put forth such a ill-conceived proposal probably isn’t the sort to consider any arguments that contradict his own view point. But hey, I tried. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2008, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-for-any-felony-lets-bring-it-back/455938/66 "2008-07-10T18:26:41Z")
An easier solution would just be to send everyone to Carousel when they turn thirty. At least it’d be fair. ---
**Author:** ![plnnr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@plnnr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/plnnr)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2008, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-for-any-felony-lets-bring-it-back/455938/67 "2008-07-10T18:47:30Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] His vocabulary has a whiff of college about it [/QUOTE] You mean like the smell of a fraternity house bathroom the morning after a burrito and Blatz party? ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2008, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-for-any-felony-lets-bring-it-back/455938/68 "2008-07-10T18:57:10Z")
[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun] Was that comment made as a moderator? Can anybody announce that a poster’s posts do not need to be taken seriously? [/QUOTE] Let’s find out. I, **Lemur866** , hereby declare that **Two and a Half Inches of Fun** ’s posts do not need to be taken seriously. Now let’s see if I get warned by the moderators! ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2008, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-for-any-felony-lets-bring-it-back/455938/69 "2008-07-10T19:04:20Z")
:: rides up on my great winged unicorn, Pookie :: [Candygram for 2.5 Inches of Fun! You’re wanted in the Pit!](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=475053) :: rides off before anyone points out that unicorns don’t have wings :: ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2008, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-for-any-felony-lets-bring-it-back/455938/70 "2008-07-10T19:06:48Z")
[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun] Since you are a moderator, how is this not a personal insult? Does this type of comment belong in GD? [/QUOTE] Obviously, **Tomndebb** is capable of fighting his own battles, but let me take a moment to address what lies under your questions. Moderators are regular board members who also have a “moderator hat” that we can put on when required for board management purposes. Although the word “moderator” under our names does keep us a bit more careful about what we say, it does not prevent us from posting what other members might post. The definition of “personal insult” is the same for moderators as it is for anyone else. **Tomndebb** is obviously better-qualified to answer “does this type of comment belong in GD,” since he’s a GD moderator and I’m a Game Room moderator, but you have to remember that you have a history of starting highly-inflammatory threads, and you start them in just about every forum on the boards. Can you honestly argue that you started the “Help me increase my carbon footprint” and “Set your dance card for T. Kennedy’s Grave―Here’s to his rape in Hell by his brothers” threads for any reason other than to piss people off? ---
**Author:** ![DiggitCamara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df788c/32.png) [@DiggitCamara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiggitCamara)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2008, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-for-any-felony-lets-bring-it-back/455938/71 "2008-07-10T19:13:44Z")
[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun] Felonies were punished by death when the 8th amendment was passed. > [@](#): > > The death penalty, [Justice Scalia] argues, is not covered by the 8th Amendment’s ban on “cruel and unusual punishment.” > > [Justice Scalia] points out that at the time the Constitution was written, execution was the only penalty for felonies, and therefore cannot be excluded by the amendment. [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programm...ion/7238665.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programm...ion/7238665.stm) > **[BBC NEWS | Programmes | Law in Action | Scalia in uncompromising form](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/law_in_action/7238665.stm)** > > A rare interview with Antonin Scalia, the most outspoken Justice on the US Supreme Court. [/QUOTE] So… is your actual argument: 1. Judge Scalia argued a similar position to yours? And, since he is a Supreme Court Judge, it should be taken as the correct interpretation of the Constitution and thus enacted everywhere? or are you expecting, somehow, 1. That some Scalia-fan will come in, argue against your position and thus help you throw this quote against him/her? ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2008, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-for-any-felony-lets-bring-it-back/455938/72 "2008-07-10T19:13:55Z")
[QUOTE=panache45] Well, thank goodness Martha Stewart has already served her sentence . . . or are you planning on making this retroactive? Will her execution be televised, just to set an example to anyone else who profits from a tip by her broker? [/QUOTE] She was convicted of lying to investigators and obstruction of justice, not in insider trading. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2008, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-for-any-felony-lets-bring-it-back/455938/73 "2008-07-10T19:18:03Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] She was convicted of lying to investigators and obstruction of justice, not in insider trading. [/QUOTE] Well, thank goodness indeed, if it gets Cookie Monster off the hook. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2008, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-for-any-felony-lets-bring-it-back/455938/74 "2008-07-10T19:22:13Z")
[QUOTE=El\_Kabong] Well, thank goodness indeed, if it gets Cookie Monster off the hook. [/QUOTE] I don’t see why it wouldn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2008, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-for-any-felony-lets-bring-it-back/455938/75 "2008-07-10T20:30:28Z")
Just a quick qustion to **2½"** Would you be willing yourself to pull the trigger, flip the switch, hold the axe or whatever way this is supposed to be done? ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2008, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-for-any-felony-lets-bring-it-back/455938/76 "2008-07-10T22:26:02Z")
[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun] There is no excuse for committing a felony. A person who shows such disrespect for society should be removed from society. This is the way things used to be, and we need to bring this back. [/QUOTE] When? Before Draco? ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2008, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-for-any-felony-lets-bring-it-back/455938/77 "2008-07-10T22:28:22Z")
[QUOTE=Charlie Tan] Just a quick qustion to **2½"** [/QUOTE] The OP is not in a position to reply for a [month](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=475080). Thread closed. Anyone who wishes to resume the discussion is, of course, free to start a new thread. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2008, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-for-any-felony-lets-bring-it-back/455938/78 "2008-07-10T22:28:24Z")
Since the OP has been suspended and no one else was advocating his position, I’m going to lock this thread. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-for-any-felony-lets-bring-it-back/455938.md?page=3)