# Death of the Queen/President **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 24, 2015, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-of-the-queen-president/728747 "2015-08-24T18:13:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2015, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-of-the-queen-president/728747/101 "2015-08-31T17:52:20Z")
> [@Kenm](#): > > Twelve, apparently. Thirteen, actually. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2015, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-of-the-queen-president/728747/102 "2015-08-31T18:00:00Z")
> [@Kenm](#): > > And with them, Canadians must pay for the lieut gov, all the lieut gov’s expenses and the lieut gov’s mansion. What, in Og’s name, does a lieut gov do except kowtow to the PM? Nothing. Nada, except, perhaps, throwing caviar and champagne parties for visiting dignitaries. Including that kept woman. What lieutenant governors’ mansions? Which provinces provide mansions for their Lt Gov to live in? Accomodation expenses, sure, if they don’t normally live in the capital, but what mansions where they live? And as others have commented, if you have a parliamentary system with a head of state, you need to have someone if not the monarch. Just abolishing the monarchy without creating a replacement would make provincial and federal governments grind to a halt: no laws could be passed, nor regulations, nor orders-in-council exercising statutory powers. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2015, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-of-the-queen-president/728747/103 "2015-08-31T18:05:45Z")
> [@Kenm](#): > > Thirteen, actually. No, ten - because the territorial Commissioners are purely statutory officers; they aren’t acting in the name of Her Majesty. But, the taxpayers have to pay for those three Commissioners just the same as for Lt Govs. ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2015, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-of-the-queen-president/728747/104 "2015-08-31T18:18:30Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > What lieutenant governors’ mansions? Which provinces provide mansions for their Lt Gov to live in? Accomodation expenses, sure, if they don’t normally live in the capital, but what mansions where they live? [**Scroll down**](http://www.gov.mb.ca/mit/legtour/legbld.html) for an exterior shot. Scroll to the heading [**Architecture and interiors**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_House_%28Manitoba%29). > [@](#): > > And as others have commented, if you have a parliamentary system with a head of state, you need to have someone if not the monarch. Just abolishing the monarchy without creating a replacement would make provincial and federal governments grind to a halt: no laws could be passed, nor regulations, nor orders-in-council exercising statutory powers. Too bad The United States of America didn’t think of that when it won the War of Independence. It wouldn’t have sunk into non-existence otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2015, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-of-the-queen-president/728747/105 "2015-08-31T18:31:49Z")
> [@Kenm](#): > > [**Scroll down**](http://www.gov.mb.ca/mit/legtour/legbld.html) for an exterior shot. > > Scroll to the heading [**Architecture and interiors**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_House_%28Manitoba%29). Interesting. I didn’t know that Manitoba still provided a residence. Saskatchewan doesn’t. How many other provinces do? > [@](#): > > Too bad The United States of America didn’t think of that when it won the War of Independence. It wouldn’t have sunk into non-existence otherwise. The United States did not retain a parliamentary system. Instead, they opted for a congressional/presidential system. And the expenses for the President are considerable, I understand. 🙂 As I’ve said earlier, it is possible to change from a monarchical parliamentary system to a republican parliamentary system. But if you keep a parliamentary system and just want to get rid of the monarchy, you’re still going to have to have someone who fulfils that role as head of state, which will cost money. The territorial commissioners are the best example of this. They perform the head of state role in the territorial parliaments, without being representatives of the Queen. And the taxpayers have to pick up the tab, just like the other components of a government. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2015, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-of-the-queen-president/728747/106 "2015-08-31T18:33:16Z")
> [@Kenm](#): > > Too bad The United States of America didn’t think of that when it won the War of Independence. It wouldn’t have sunk into non-existence otherwise. The US does not have a parliamentary system. We do, however, have a head of state, and we pay plenty for the White House and the presidential travels. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2015, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-of-the-queen-president/728747/107 "2015-08-31T18:36:46Z")
Here’s [an article which gives the estimated costs for the White House](http://dailycaller.com/2012/10/08/how-it-costs-taxpayers-1-4-billion-a-year-to-fund-the-white-house/)(which specifically does not include the policy functions of the President; just the expenses of having the President). **The total is 1.4 Billion.** > [@](#): > > • President’s salary and allowance: $450,000 > > • White House building operating expenses: $14,658,000 > > • White House Grounds: $6,057,000 > > • Vacations: $20,000,000 > > • Health care for the first family, including traveling medical staff and equipment: $7,000,000 > > • Campaign expenses not reimbursed to government: $311,000,000 > > • White House staff: $7,985,420 > > • Office of Administration budget: $14,481,000 > > • Special missions including White House Communications Agency: $161,252,000 > > • Military salary costs: $153,441,360 > > • Salary costs for presidential airlift squadron: $75,000,000 > > • Presidential plane fleet: $44,000,000 > > • Presidential helicopter fleet: $300,000,000 > > • Ground transportation: $2,200,000 > > • Transportation total: $346,200,000 > > • Secret Service: $259,152,884 Yup, lots of savings there by getting rid of the monarchy. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2015, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-of-the-queen-president/728747/108 "2015-08-31T18:44:50Z")
And here’s an article about how much the Queen and the Royal family cost the British public: [Royal Family costs British $1.26 each a year](http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/royal-family-costs-british-1-26-each-a-year-1.602523) > [@](#): > > The Queen and her extended family cost each British taxpayer 62 pence — or about $1.26 CAN — in the past fiscal year, Buckingham Palace said Wednesday when it released its official accounts. > > Alan Reid, Keeper of the Privy Purse, scoffed at critics who complain about the cost of keeping the Queen. > > “Given this is a World Cup year, 62 pence would buy you a ticket for one minute of England’s game against Portugal on Saturday,” Reid told the Guardian newspaper. To reach a similar per person estimate for the cost of the White House, I divided that $1.4 Billion dollar budget by the US population (318.9 million), and got a per person cost of the White House of $4.39 US for every American. Yup, considerable savings in a republic rather than a constitutional monarchy… 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2015, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-of-the-queen-president/728747/109 "2015-08-31T18:58:56Z")
The U.S. Is a country of more than 300 million people, and it has its own problems. But it doesn’t have to curtsey and petition the English queen to deal with them. Comparing Canada’s expenses with its 33 million people to the expenses of the U.S. with its 300 million is comparing a subcompact car to an aircraft carrier. Do you really think that Canada would suddenly have U.S.-sized bills because it dumped the monarchy? BTW, the territorial commissioners make my argument for me. Not only do they do nothing, they can’'t even do it by themselves. They need higher-level do-nothings, as extensions to the queen’s eyeballs looking over their shoulders, to do nothing. Except collect fat salaries. If once-in-blue-moon tours of Canada by royal cattle is so important, toss them off the train in Quebec City. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2015, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-of-the-queen-president/728747/110 "2015-08-31T19:03:54Z")
Here’s the mansion for the Commissioner of Yukon, [Taylor House](http://www.commissioner.gov.yk.ca/about/taylor-house.html). ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2015, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-of-the-queen-president/728747/111 "2015-08-31T19:07:23Z")
> [@Kenm](#): > > BTW, the territorial commissioners make my argument for me. Not only do they do nothing, they can’'t even do it by themselves. They need higher-level do-nothings, as extensions to the queen’s eyeballs looking over their shoulders, to do nothing. Except collect fat salaries. Except they do do something: like other heads of state in a parliamentary system, they are ultimately responsible for the constitutional functioning of the parliamentary machinery, including appointing the premier, dissolving the House, and granting assent to all laws and orders. A parliamentary system doesn’t function without a head of state, even if the duties are primarily symbolic. If you think it’s possible to have a parliamentary system without a head of state, please give an example. ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2015, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-of-the-queen-president/728747/112 "2015-08-31T19:10:32Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Here’s the mansion for the Commissioner of Yukon, [Taylor House](http://www.commissioner.gov.yk.ca/about/taylor-house.html). As it should be. As commissioner of Yukon, he can do even less than lieut govs who, at least, can blow on their own soup. Providing the queen allows it. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2015, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-of-the-queen-president/728747/113 "2015-08-31T19:18:15Z")
The Commissioner for Yukon has exactly the same powers in the territorial government that the Lt Govs have in the provincial system. ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2015, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-of-the-queen-president/728747/114 "2015-08-31T19:24:03Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > If you think it’s possible to have a parliamentary system without a head of state, please give an example. _Everything_ is impossible, until it isn’t. Besides. who said a parliamentary system is the be-all and end-all of government? That aside, a parliamentary system does not require a foreign head of state. And if she isn’t legally a foreigner, she damned well should be. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2015, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-of-the-queen-president/728747/115 "2015-08-31T19:30:39Z")
> [@Kenm](#): > > _Everything_ is impossible, until it isn’t. > > Besides. who said a parliamentary system is the be-all and end-all of government? > > That aside, a parliamentary system does not require a foreign head of state. And if she isn’t legally a foreigner, she damned well should be. What makes you think the expenses would be less if you had a native Canadian head of state? What makes you think the expenses would be less if you had a non-parliamentary system? You’ll still have a head of state in some form, because EVERY kind of government has some form of head of state. And NorthernPiper quite deliberately compared per capita costs in the US and UK to minimize the difference in population. Even if the total Canadian bill is smaller because you’re a smaller country in terms of population, that says nothing at all about the relative level of per capita costs in Canada. ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2015, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-of-the-queen-president/728747/116 "2015-08-31T19:33:34Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > The Commissioner for Yukon has exactly the same powers in the territorial government that the Lt Govs have in the provincial system. Not quite. > **[Commissioner](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commissioner#Canadian_territories)** > > A commissioner (commonly abbreviated as Comm'r) is, in principle, a member of a commission or an individual who has been given a commission (official charge or authority to do something). > In practice, the title of commissioner has evolved to include a variety of senior officials, often sitting on a specific commission. In particular, the commissioner frequently refers to senior police or government officials. A high commissioner is equivalent to an ambassador, originally between the United Kingd... > [@](#): > > Unlike the [governor general](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Governor_General_of_Canada) or a [lieutenant governor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lieutenant_governor_(Canada)), commissioners are not viceregal representatives of the [Canadian monarch](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monarchy_of_Canada); rather, they are delegates of the federal Crown-in-Council and, under federal [statutes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statute) governing the territories,[[1]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commissioner#cite_note-1)[[2]](http://internal/tab?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FCommissioner%23cite_note-2&referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fboards.straightdope.com%2Fsdmb%2Fnewreply.php%3Fdo%3Dpostreply%26t%3D765996&target=_blank)[[3]](http://internal/tab?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FCommissioner%23cite_note-3&referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fboards.straightdope.com%2Fsdmb%2Fnewreply.php%3Fdo%3Dpostreply%26t%3D765996&target=_blank) act in accordance with written instructions from Cabinet or the minister responsible (currently the [Minister of Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development](http://internal/tab?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FMinister_of_Aboriginal_Affairs_and_Northern_Development_(Canada)&referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fboards.straightdope.com%2Fsdmb%2Fnewreply.php%3Fdo%3Dpostreply%26t%3D765996&target=_blank)). ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2015, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-of-the-queen-president/728747/117 "2015-08-31T19:52:09Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > What makes you think the expenses would be less if you had a native Canadian head of state? What makes you think they wouldn’t? Canada would’t need 13 queen’s representatives, for one thing, and those drones don’t come cheap. > [@](#): > > What makes you think the expenses would be less if you had a non-parliamentary system? You’ll still have a head of state in some form, because EVERY kind of government has some form of head of state. This non-parliamentar-system issue is a red herring. Canada could have it’s own head of state, a Canadian, not some foreign regal with an international embarrassment for a husband whom Canada can’t fire. > [@](#): > > And NorthernPiper quite deliberately compared per capita costs in the US and UK to minimize the difference in population. Even if the total Canadian bill is smaller because you’re a smaller country in terms of population, that says nothing at all about the relative level of per capita costs in Canada. Which still doesn’t get rid of the expenses necessitated by having a foreign monarch as head of state, and a useless puppet at that. The U.K. should dump her, too, and transport her and her stadium-seating-sized brood to St. Helena. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2015, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-of-the-queen-president/728747/118 "2015-08-31T20:39:09Z")
> [@Kenm](#): > > What makes you think they wouldn’t? Canada would’t need 13 queen’s representatives, for one thing, and those drones don’t come cheap. As long as Canada is a federation, it’s going to have provincial and territorial governments, which will cost money. Getting rid of the monarchy doesn’t change that. > [@](#): > > This non-parliamentar-system issue is a red herring. Canada could have it’s own head of state, a Canadian, not some foreign regal with an international embarrassment for a husband whom Canada can’t fire. Sure we could switch to a Canadian head of state . Never said we couldn’t. But if we did, we would still have to pay the costs for that head of state. Nothing there to support your “parasite” comment. > [@](#): > > Which still doesn’t get rid of the expenses necessitated by having a foreign monarch as head of state, and a useless puppet at that. You still have not demonstrated any cost to the Canadian taxpayer of having a foreign monarch. If we substituted a Canadian head of state, we still would have the same costs. Look, you want to advocate for the abolition of the monarchy and a move to a Canadian republic, go for it. But don’t use arguments that have no factual basis in support, like this suggestion that the royal family is costing Canadian taxpayers. Use your real argument, which is that you want a Canadian head of state. ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2015, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-of-the-queen-president/728747/119 "2015-08-31T21:35:18Z")
The federal government could be set up with one head of state. The provinces and territories do not need them. They’re like senators; political payoffs personified. The provinces, and territories even moreso, need a separate head-of-state stand-in like a hole in the head. The premier can be the stand-in head of state, as s(he) is in everything but name anyway. Head-of-stateness provincially means penny-ante-only photo ops, if that. Short of royal visits (which wouldn’t happen anymore, because why would the queen attend a plaque unveiling in Armpit if she wasn’t Armpit’s liege lord), any provincial function “important” enough for a lieutenant governor to attend inevitably has the provincial premier in attendance anyway. And inevitably, both speechify.The lieut gov blows it out because (s)he represents the head of state, who, no doubt would attend the fete in honour of J.B. Gotrocks retiring from his position of sweatshop overseer after 90 years, but she just did her hair and who in her right mind would go there anyway, especially for that, and the premier blows it out because if he doesn’t show up on TV his cabinet would want to know why, even if coverage doesn’t extend beyond the local cable channel. If s(he)'s lucky. The provinces, and territories even moreso, need a separate head-of-state stand-in like a hole in the head. The premier can be the head of state, for what it’s worth, as s(he) is in everything but name now. If the occasion is important enough, the governor general would attend. If it isn’t, why have a queen’s representative attend at all? Separate provincial or territorial “heads of state” is laughable. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2015, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-of-the-queen-president/728747/120 "2015-08-31T22:27:34Z")
> [@Kenm](#): > > The federal government could be set up with one head of state. The provinces and territories do not need them. They’re like senators; political payoffs personified. Canada, as presently constituted, is a federation with individual parliamentary governments in the provinces as well as federally. That means each province has a head of state (the lt governor) and a head of government (the premier). If you want to revise the Canadian system of government entirely, including the form of government within each province and the relation of the provinces to the central government, then sure, you could do that, but it would be a very radical restructuring, far more radical than I think you realize. > [@Kenm](#): > > Short of royal visits (which wouldn’t happen anymore, because why would the queen attend a plaque unveiling in Armpit if she wasn’t Armpit’s liege lord), As noted above by several posters, including myself, the queen and other members of the royal family DO attend plaque unveilings and other events in places where the British have **never** held any form of sovereignty.For example, in 2014 Prince Harry made an official trip to Brazil and Chile; yes, while he was there he unveiled some commemorative plaques. Do you happen to recall when the queen was the liege lady in either of those countries? (Hint: never.) That would not change merely because Canada changed its government, and I do not grasp why you would expect it to. Edited to add: In part, the British royals travel to whatever countries the British Foreign Office tells them to visit, to promote British foreign relations, British trade, etc. Do you think Britain and Canada would cease to have any form of commercial or diplomatic relations just because they no longer shared a common head of state? The royals also travel in support of their personal interests and causes: Princess Anne and the Olympics and Save the Children, the late Princess of Wales and land mines, Prince Charles and environmentalism, and so forth. Those interests and causes aren’t going to cease to exist either. > [@Kenm](#): > > The premier can be the head of state, for what it’s worth, as s(he) is in everything but name now. Would you care to name any well-functioning parliamentary systems in which the head of state is also head of government? How about any at all? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-of-the-queen-president/728747.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-of-the-queen-president/728747.md?page=7)