Exactly this.
I don’t see how a person who suffers from dementia can meaningfully consent to being killed.
I suppose you can do advance directives, but do you really want to kill someone who objects? In Belgium they killed someone who had an advance directive but at the time she was very adamant that she didn’t want to die. I don’t really think your past self can force that choice on your future self morally.
So let’s just have everyone over 55 put down, then. Make room for younger people, let’s get rid of those ‘decrepit’ humans.
Oh, you don’t want to live in a society where an inevitable number of months on a calendar results in your guaranteed death?
Well, ok, let’s take care of those people who happen to have had a certain number of calendar years pass. Except they are still dying. Well why don’t we pause biology, work out how to rejuvenate them back to a non-decrepit state, and then restore them?
The only reason to object is if you think somehow that this is not possible eventually or this goes against the commands of your invisible sky-daddy who promises great things after you’re a corpse.
Or another way to look at it is that this technology (making ‘decrepit’ elderly back into fully functioning humans) will be developed eventually, so long as humans don’t go extinct and keep making forward progress. Most of the humans who will be born after you won’t agree with the injustice of the whole aging and death thing. So why be among the poor bastards to die? If it’s unavoidable, sure, ok. But there are solid reasons to think that if a freezing process preserves enough of your grey matter’s fine details and neural connections, it is fundamentally possible to restore basically everything.
really? what’s to understand? Giving people the option of a peaceful and painless death at a time of their own choosing seems a really simple concept to me.
Of course people are able to kill themselves at any point but not always competently or safely or neatly or timely or without causing undue distress to those who find them and scrape them off the train tracks.
cite?
Based on what I know about dementia, I think I’d choose death. I’m sure there’s a decent chance I’d have those childlike-fun moments, but that’s among the sea of confused days where I wouldn’t be able to remember what I was doing or watching or reading, possibly not remember who my husband is or where I was. IF my husband was with me during my lucid moments I’m sure it would be lovely to still be with him or maybe we could do something together, but even that would be tainted by understanding what was happening to me, what my condition would be doing to him, knowing my lucidity is just temporary…
It’s horrifying. I wouldn’t want that life for me or my family.
Britain: Alfie Evans. The boy could not give consent and the parents did not give consent.
I recently took over the care of my exwife so as not to put the burden on my children. She is not too advanced yet. 2 years ago they took her drivers licence. Biggest problem she has is short term memory. She can remember her past pretty well but that is starting to fade. It seems the further back we go the better she can remember. She has pretty much forgotten most of the 20 years we spent married but does bring up dogs we had, parties we used to have, me and my wine making and pot growing. But these things are fading away daily. Boredom was a major issue so I fixed her up some bird and squirrel feeders and a bird bath. She fixates on feeding the little birds and squirrels most of the day. She still stays mostly alone but I do all her cooking and shopping and spend about 4 hours a day with her as she lives in my guest house where I have my shop. She doesn’t seem to have any desire for a social life anymore but enjoys when my friends stop by if they chat with her.
She was put into a convalescent home almost 2 years ago, she didn't know who any of us were and not even sure f she knew who she was. I got her out and took her home. I took her off some of the meds she was on and in just a matter of days her memory came back. The chief offending medication was a medicine used to relieve an over active bladder.The day I can no longer control my mind, I am so out of here.
Well, for one thing there’s limited storage room. And you’d have to factor in the cost of maintaining all those bodies in a frozen state for unspecified time. Isn’t there something to be said for using that money for, like, saving millions from dying from malaria instead?
While frozen, they’re technically dead. Why resurrect them at some point in the future, rather than replacing them with new-borns?
what has that got to do with with a slippery slope from voluntary euthanasia? (which we don’t have in the UK)
No. Evans was being kept alive. There’s a difference.
Just the straw men.
So you are claiming that only two possible viewpoints are possible.
(1) a religiously-motivated belief in the afterlife;
(2) a desire for personal immortality if possible; and a willingness to devote substantial human resources to give every human being that opportunity, even if the likelihood of success is remote with current technology.
I’m honestly puzzled as to why you think a desire for tech-enabled immortality is a given. I don’t disagree with most of your speculations on where technology is going (in silica consciousness, for example), but a notion that it’s so important that the mind of every human must live on at all costs is an ideology that you seem to have pulled out of thin air without any justification whatsoever. I certainly don’t share it, and I’m not remotely religious.
So right now, 70-5 favoring death. Do you figure that is because these boards skew so liberal/atheist?
My MIL had dementia. Certainly beyond the point at which I would wish to be kept alive - but she died before she got to the point of these folk I saw yesterday.
Was very fortunate that both of my parents were in control of their faculties up to the day that they died in their sleep - although neither of them made it past 78.
The people I saw yesterday I would compare to my nearly 3-yr old granddaughter in terms of independence, rational thought, and ability to communicate. I wonder how many people - if asked when they were competent - would wish to continue existing in such a state? Personally, I do not wish that my kids/grandkids/friends remember me like that, instead of when I had some control over whatever faculties I have.
And the place we were playing at was a VERY nice nursing home. I can only imagine how horrible conditions might be for folk unable to pay for such care.
Strikes me as humane to encourage competent/sentient people to see what eldercare is actually like, and to allow them to express their preferences - when they are able to express such preferences - as to whether they wish to be kept alive. i could imagine any number of tests I would gladly impose upon myself, such that if I failed them, I would with to be killed. Say, if over the course of a month, I am consistently incapable of recognizing and naming my 3 children. Or if I’m unable to read and comprehend a 200 page novel.
I have to assume my kids won’t enjoy me not recognizing them, or having to clean up after me, or feeding me, and doing everything else for me because I’ve turned into a 200 pound infant. And I don’t want to put anyone through that. I’m leaving it to them to decide when is the right time because the closer the right time gets the less likely I am to recognize it. Just put Dad to bed in the coffin, close the lid, and turn on the nitrogen. Done and done.
I voted “I’d rather die” without a moment of hesitation. I really wish there was a facility like the one Edward G. Robinson went to in Soylent Green, but without the turning-bodies-into-snack-wafers part.
Given the fact I won’t have kids to guilt into providing in-home care and the fact I likely won’t have a whole lot of money for long-term care in a nice facility, I’m going to go with “death”. It is bad enough thinking about spending my final days in a frail, arthritic, wheel-chair bound, diapered state. But I would have some dignity as long as my mind is relatively intact. And at least in theory I’d be able to entertain myself by reflecting on my life and humanity’s technological progress, even if my sight and hearing were all shot to shit.
Without my mind, I wouldn’t be me. I would just be a unloveable burden. I don’t want to be remembered in that state.
Yeah, that’s how I feel. And I’m NOT talking about killing mentally impaired folk who never had whatever we call wish to full control of their mental faculties. Or killing anyone against their choice. But I can’t understand why a presumably advanced society would not wish to inform people of the eventualities, and allow them to make an informed choice at a time that they WERE competent. Including precautions against pressuring them.
“Death panels” certainly does not accurately describe what I am suggesting.
Personally, I’ve never understood why someon who believes that death is followed by permanent nonexistence would be so eager to embrace it.
Have you been to an old people’s home? Have you heard all the demented crying out for help? It’s dreadful. I don’t want that for myself.