# Death penalty for rich people **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 28, 2013, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-penalty-for-rich-people/651582 "2013-02-28T01:41:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2013, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-penalty-for-rich-people/651582/1 "2013-02-28T01:41:53Z")
I was listening to Tempest performing the song “Iron Lady” (written by Phil Ochs), which is about the electric chair. The song includes the following verse: > [@](#): > > In the courtroom, watch the balance of the scales > If the price is right, there’s time for more appeals > The strings are pulled, the switch is stayed > The finest lawyers fees are paid > And a rich man never died upon the chair The last line caught my attention. Is that true? Let’s define “rich” as “net worth of over a million US dollars.” Has such a person ever been given the death penalty in the U.S.? Actually been executed (in the electric chair or otherwise)? _This thread is NOT for a debate about the death penalty! It is a specific question about the accuracy of that particular line in that particular song._ ---
**Author:** ![Dave\_Hartwick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7feea3/32.png) [@Dave\_Hartwick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Hartwick)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2013, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-penalty-for-rich-people/651582/2 "2013-02-28T01:58:56Z")
Louis Buchalter rode lightning in 1944. I don’t know what his net worth was, but his associate Meyer Lansky had an estimated net worth of $600 million, according to some sketchy website. I’d expect Buchalter, a major figure in organized crime, would have been considered rich when he died. > **[Lepke Buchalter](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Buchalter)** > > Louis Buchalter, known as Louis Lepke or Lepke Buchalter, (February 6, 1897 – March 4, 1944) was an American mobster and head of the Mafia hit squad Murder, Inc., during the 1930s. Buchalter was one of the premier labor racketeers in New York City during that era. > Charles Birger and Buchalter are the only American mob bosses to be executed after being convicted of murder. Louis Buchalter was executed using the infamous "Old Sparky" electric chair after being sent "up the river" to Sing Sing Corr... > **[Meyer Lansky Net Worth](https://www.celebritynetworth.com/richest-businessmen/richest-criminals/meyer-lansky-net-worth/)** > > What is Meyer Lansky's net worth? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2013, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-penalty-for-rich-people/651582/3 "2013-02-28T01:59:42Z")
Well there’s [Louis Buchalter](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Buchalter). Not sure if he was a millionaire, but he was pretty well off. And this was quite some time ago, so we’d need to adjust for inflation anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Shmendrik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Shmendrik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shmendrik)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2013, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-penalty-for-rich-people/651582/4 "2013-02-28T02:07:45Z")
> **[Floyd Allen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floyd_Allen)** > > Floyd Allen (July 5, 1856 – March 28, 1913) was an American landowner and patriarch of the Allen clan of Carroll County, Virginia. He was convicted and executed for murder in 1913 after a sensational courthouse shootout the previous year that left a judge, prosecutor, sheriff, and three others dead, although the validity of the conviction has been a source of debate within Carroll County for decades. Allen, who was before the bar for sentencing after being convicted of taking a prisoner from a Fl... > [@](#): > > Floyd Allen (July 5, 1856 – March 28, 1913) was an American landowner and patriarch of the Allen clan of Carroll County, Virginia. He was convicted and executed for murder in 1913 after a sensational courthouse shootout that left a judge, prosecutor, sheriff, and two others dead, although doubt has been expressed about the validity of the conviction. > > … > > Floyd Allen was the chief patriarch of Carroll County’s leading family, which in addition to owning large tracts of farmland and a prosperous general store, were also active in local politics, illegal liquor manufacture, and bootlegging. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2013, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-penalty-for-rich-people/651582/5 "2013-02-28T02:08:52Z")
That’s an awfully low bar for being “rich.” I’d say that in the context of your question, “rich” means that you can afford to have high-powered law firms devote significant time and research to your case, tracking people down who might offer an alibi, hiring expert witnesses, and filing appeals, indefinitely if necessary. I don’t think a million bucks would last more than a year or two. ---
**Author:** ![Shmendrik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Shmendrik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shmendrik)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2013, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-penalty-for-rich-people/651582/6 "2013-02-28T02:14:11Z")
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles\_Brooks,\_Jr](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Brooks,_Jr). > [@](#): > > Brooks was raised in a wealthy family in Fort Worth, Texas. No idea how much money he had available for his legal defense though. ---
**Author:** ![Shmendrik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Shmendrik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shmendrik)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2013, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-penalty-for-rich-people/651582/7 "2013-02-28T02:15:27Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > That’s an awfully low bar for being “rich.” I’d say that in the context of your question, “rich” means that you can afford to have high-powered law firms devote significant time and research to your case, tracking people down who might offer an alibi, hiring expert witnesses, and \*\*filing appeals, indefinitely if necessary. > \*\* > I don’t think a million bucks would last more than a year or two. I don’t think that’s actually possible in the real world. If it was, cheap public aid lawyers or anti death penalty activists could do it just as well. ---
**Author:** ![Dave\_Hartwick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7feea3/32.png) [@Dave\_Hartwick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Hartwick)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2013, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-penalty-for-rich-people/651582/8 "2013-02-28T02:19:39Z")
A net worth of a million dollars would put you in the over the US _household_ median 90th percentile. I’d call that rich. ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2013, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-penalty-for-rich-people/651582/9 "2013-02-28T02:24:39Z")
[The Master Speaks.](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2660/have-any-millionaires-ever-been-executed-in-the-united-states) ---
**Author:** ![Dave\_Hartwick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7feea3/32.png) [@Dave\_Hartwick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Hartwick)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2013, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-penalty-for-rich-people/651582/10 "2013-02-28T02:28:18Z")
“An analysis of Georgia cases showed that prosecutors were almost twice as likely to ask for the death penalty when the defendant couldn’t afford a lawyer.” Ah, well, that’s because poor people are almost twice as guilty. ---
**Author:** ![Shmendrik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Shmendrik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shmendrik)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2013, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-penalty-for-rich-people/651582/11 "2013-02-28T02:40:29Z")
John Wayne Gacy may not have been a millionaire, but he was relatively prosperous. > [@Wikipedia](#): > > In 1972, Gacy quit his job as a cook and started his own construction business, PDM Contractors (PDM being the initials for ‘Painting, Decorating and Maintenance’).[62] The business initially undertook minor repair work, such as signwriting, pouring concrete and redecorating, but later expanded to include projects such as interior design, remodeling, installation, assembly and landscaping. By 1978, the gross of PDM’s annual turnover was over $200,000.[63] ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2013, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-penalty-for-rich-people/651582/12 "2013-02-28T04:42:18Z")
Thanks for all the information. It does appear that the lyric is wrong, but a change from “never” to “rarely” would have made it right. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2013, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-penalty-for-rich-people/651582/13 "2013-02-28T06:08:49Z")
> [@Shmendrik](#): > > I don’t think that’s actually possible in the real world. If it was, cheap public aid lawyers or anti death penalty activists could do it just as well. My totally unqualified understanding is that, at least in some states, the first appeal is automatic, but subsequent appeals are only granted if some substantial new evidence comes to light. A public defender would not have the time or resources to find new evidence, but a firm that could hire private detectives and expert witnesses, or even pay people for phony alibis, might have more success. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2013, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-penalty-for-rich-people/651582/14 "2013-02-28T06:11:24Z")
> [@Dave\_Hartwick](#): > > A net worth of a million dollars would put you in the over the US _household_ median 90th percentile. I’d call that rich. Well, I’ve got a net worth of about a million, and I don’t feel rich. And I sure don’t think that if I killed my wife, I’d get the same quality defense as OJ did. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2013, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-penalty-for-rich-people/651582/15 "2013-02-28T06:56:49Z")
**Death penalty for rich people** Well yes, come the revolution. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Mdcastle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/958977/32.png) [@Mdcastle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mdcastle)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2013, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-penalty-for-rich-people/651582/16 "2013-02-28T14:13:59Z")
> [@Dave\_Hartwick](#): > > “An analysis of Georgia cases showed that prosecutors were almost twice as likely to ask for the death penalty when the defendant couldn’t afford a lawyer.” > > Ah, well, that’s because poor people are almost twice as guilty. IMHO this snippet by itself is meaningless. Are we talking about all murder cases, or only cases that have similar circumstances. Lumping “Rich guy finds wife in bed with another man” and “Crack dealer tries to shoot rival but kills 12 year old girl instead” cases together doesn’t really prove there’s a systematic discrimination against poor people in the legal system. Aside from a few wealthy serial killers maybe poor people really do commit more / more henious crimes and thus get punished more? ---
**Author:** ![FrankJBN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f0a364/32.png) [@FrankJBN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FrankJBN)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2013, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-penalty-for-rich-people/651582/17 "2013-02-28T14:46:16Z")
re: the million dollar level First let me say to the millionaire who posted here “I don’t feel rich”, that you may be kidding your self, but no one else. I’m not poor and I have a net worth of around $35,000 including life insurance. As to in general, we must remember we are searching for historical data, As ‘little’ as a million dollars may be today, for most of our history, one million dollars has been a very substantial net worth. In 1978, when gacy grossed 200,000, the median white household income in the US was under 16,000 (with the addition of black households of course the US median was substantially lower). Just to bring in $1,000,000, not accumulate such a worth, the average householder would have to work 62 years. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2013, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-penalty-for-rich-people/651582/18 "2013-02-28T15:03:53Z")
Gacy’s _business_ (not him) grossed $200,000. How much of that was spent on materials, operating expenses, etc.? I’d speculate his income was good, but not fantastic. Except for the Gacy types, who are secretive serial killers - the majority of murders (from my reading of the news) are people with substance abuse or anger control issues, poor education, and poor judgement. 99 times out of 100 that personailty precludes getting rich too. The Leopold and Leob murderers, IIRC, were the sons of fairly rich people - and so their parents could afford Clarence Darrow for the defence and they escaped a sure execution, getting life instead - thus being a data point in support of the song. I think the OJ trial is a good example that points out the serious shortcomings in what would otherwise be a slam-dunk (but circumstantial) case. If the police brought that same attention to detail to every case, it’s no surprise if those who can afford a good lawyer and the investigators can get off or at least escape execution. What public defender has the resources to chase down what prejudicial comments a policeman may have said, or done over his career, for example, in the days before Google? Hire expert witnesses to counter the defense? Psychology consultants to aid in jury selection? Justice is NOT blind - she sees in shades of green. ---
**Author:** ![wedgehed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8edcca/32.png) [@wedgehed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wedgehed)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2013, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-penalty-for-rich-people/651582/19 "2013-02-28T15:06:27Z")
[This case is famous in my neck of the woods.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_in_Coweta_County) > [@](#): > > After several appeals, John Wallace was executed in the electric chair in 1950. His case was unusual because he was one of the richest men to ever be given the death penalty and his case was the first in Georgia where a white man was given the death sentence upon the testimony of two black men. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2013, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-penalty-for-rich-people/651582/20 "2013-02-28T15:14:59Z")
> [@wedgehed](#): > > [This case is famous in my neck of the woods.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_in_Coweta_County) The one I was going to mention; a bizarre case that involved a [backwoods witch](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayhayley_Lancaster)(herself very rich, and a lawyer when most women didn’t go to college) and the subject of a really good TV movie that starred Andy Griffith that comes and goes from YouTube. But, O.J. and Robert Blake are more the norm when the rich are charged with felonies; the worst thing that happens to them is the dent to (in Blake and OJ’s cases, eradicaton of) their wealth from attorney’s fees. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-penalty-for-rich-people/651582.md?page=2)