# Death penalty opponents - a hypothetical **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 10, 2015, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-penalty-opponents-a-hypothetical/714651 "2015-03-10T00:25:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2015, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-penalty-opponents-a-hypothetical/714651/81 "2015-03-11T19:49:38Z")
Raping and murdering a little boy? Life imprisonment. But not the death penalty. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2015, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-penalty-opponents-a-hypothetical/714651/82 "2015-03-11T19:56:03Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > Lie detector results aren’t allowed in any court in any state in the US, and I don’t even think the fact that the defendant took the test is admissable, even if he passed it. The polygraph is mainly a tool for police investigations, and a chip for plea bargaining. . . . Well, I was talking about severely ignorant jurors, who imagine that the lack of a lie-detector test must imply guilt. (A friend of mine was on a jury, and one juror voted to acquit, because “To a white policeman, all blacks look the same.” The policeman could not possibly have identified the suspect correctly in a line-up. Education is a big problem with the jury system.) ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2015, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-penalty-opponents-a-hypothetical/714651/83 "2015-03-12T02:36:53Z")
Hell, my only objection to the death penalty has always been that there’s no redress to grievance if we make a mistake and kill someone wrongfully convicted. A device like the OP suggests, then yeah, I’d be okay with the death penalty … as long as it can be shown no one can fix it to give a false reading. ---
**Author:** ![get\_lives](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@get\_lives](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/get_lives)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2015, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-penalty-opponents-a-hypothetical/714651/84 "2015-03-12T03:38:59Z")
The highest purpose of the justice system is rehabilition and return to society. When those are impossible, the next highest purpose is protecting the public. Neither of those requires the DP, because nobody escapes life without parole these days. Any other purpose of the justice system is really just revenge, and that’s not a motivation that the state should encourage. Who is short-sighted enough to think we make ourselves better _as individual PEOPLE_ by taking revenge as a habit? And if it’s a bad habit for an individual, how does it improve the legitimacy, stability, etc. of the state or the society for the STATE to take revenge? Revenge is a powerful, deadly drug. It feels good, but it’s deadly. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2015, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-penalty-opponents-a-hypothetical/714651/85 "2015-03-12T04:47:49Z")
> [@Daylate](#): > > Just yesterday a case was on the news of a guy under arrest for child porn. Turns out that back in the seventy’s he had been convicted for raping and then murdering a 6 year old boy. For this little episode he had served a grand total of six years in the pen. Details? Link? ---
**Author:** ![MrsTime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d26b3c/32.png) [@MrsTime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrsTime)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2015, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-penalty-opponents-a-hypothetical/714651/86 "2015-03-12T14:53:10Z")
I am glad that Canada has no death penalty. It was ended after a 14 year old innocent was nearly hung many years ago. So I don’t have to give much thought to the DP since we don’t have it. I am very conflicted about it. On the one hand I cringe at the thought of the state killing an innocent person, then after all those little kids died or were maimed for life in the Mura Building bombing Mc Veigh didn’t deserve to live. I would certainly make a terrible jurist in any murder trial because I couldn’t in good conscious vote guilty if there was a chance of the DP. The DP is so final, it can’t be corrected later if there was a mistake. ---
**Author:** ![Balance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@Balance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balance)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2015, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-penalty-opponents-a-hypothetical/714651/87 "2015-03-12T18:08:59Z")
I think there is a point some posters have touched on, but not really explored–another practical problem beyond the “innocent man” problem. The death penalty legitimizes the killing of human beings who do not present a current threat. It signals to society that it’s okay to kill someone if they’ve done something bad. To what extent do people internalize that message? How much does it influence their actions? Is it actually offsetting the deterrent effect of the death penalty? I think it poisons our culture. ---
**Author:** ![Daylate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9dc877/32.png) [@Daylate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daylate)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2015, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-penalty-opponents-a-hypothetical/714651/88 "2015-03-12T18:49:16Z")
> [@](#): > > Quote: > Originally Posted by Daylate View Post > Just yesterday a case was on the news of a guy under arrest for child porn. Turns out that back in the seventy’s he had been convicted for raping and then murdering a 6 year old boy. For this little episode he had served a grand total of six years in the pen. > > Details? Link? > Quote This was broadcast on several of our Seattle news stations about a week ago. I didn’t Google it because our news here, while probably not perfect, usually doesn’t make up stories out of whole cloth. BTW, while we’re on the subject, I’ve been wondering. Do any of the D.P. opponents on this board have any limits on their belief that the D.P. should never be applied? Can you even conceive of a crime so heinous that the criminal should be executed? Or do you think that maybe Adolf Hitler (if he had been taken alive) should have received life in prison instead of the rope? Hey - I finally got a chance to invoke the Nazis as a debating point! ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2015, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-penalty-opponents-a-hypothetical/714651/89 "2015-03-12T18:53:33Z")
> [@Daylate](#): > > This was broadcast on several of our Seattle news stations about a week ago. I didn’t Google it because our news here, while probably not perfect, usually doesn’t make up stories out of whole cloth. > > BTW, while we’re on the subject, I’ve been wondering. Do any of the D.P. opponents on this board have any limits on their belief that the D.P. should never be applied? Can you even conceive of a crime so heinous that the criminal should be executed? Or do you think that maybe Adolf Hitler (if he had been taken alive) should have received life in prison instead of the rope? > > Hey - I finally got a chance to invoke the Nazis as a debating point! I can’t think of a crime heinous enough. I can imagine a scenario where it’s impossible to imprison someone. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2015, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-penalty-opponents-a-hypothetical/714651/90 "2015-03-12T19:38:12Z")
> [@AnaMen](#): > > Not crazy, but could take away some of the deterrent value. There’s no evidence the death panalty has a deterrent value. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2015, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-penalty-opponents-a-hypothetical/714651/91 "2015-03-12T19:49:10Z")
> [@Balance](#): > > The death penalty legitimizes the killing of human beings who do not present a current threat. It signals to society that it’s okay to kill someone if they’ve done something bad. Bin Laden probably wasn’t much of a threat at the precise moment the SEALs gunned him down. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2015, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-penalty-opponents-a-hypothetical/714651/92 "2015-03-12T21:59:04Z")
The deathly penalty is and always has been wrong, always and everywhere. The hypothetical does nothing to alter this basic fact. Just imagine if the putative Pontius Pilate had not had death by crucifixion (or any other method) available to him. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2015, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-penalty-opponents-a-hypothetical/714651/93 "2015-03-12T22:17:21Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I don’t oppose the DP because of the innocent man problem or anything like that, I oppose it for the same reason I’m against murder itself - if killing people is morally wrong, it doesn’t make it any better if the _law_ says it’s OK. If imprisoning people against their will is morally wrong… > [@steronz](#): > > Let’s imagine that this is far in the future; leftist values have finally become the norm and the death penalty has been abolished for hundreds or thousands of years. Then someone invents the 100-percentinator that can determine guilt to a magical degree of certainty. > > If someone then said that we should _execute_ those who met the 100% standard for murder, and it was up to me to decide whether or not to restore this archaic practice, my response would be, Why? What does it do for us? Why do we want to put society through the stress of having this thing, this moral decision to make periodically, when we can just lock up and forget about these people instead? And _that_ isn’t a moral decision? “Just lock up and forget”? Good god. > [@Velocity](#): > > It needs to be noted that life imprisonment also results in death, too. The only difference is that the state, technically, didn’t \*actively \*cause the death. In other words, I’m not convinced that life imprisonment is, morally speaking, significantly higher ground. Indeed. _Imprisoning a human being_ is a seriously brutal thing to do. Imprisoning someone for life, without hope of release, is among the handful of most brutal things it is _possible to do_ to a person. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2015, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-penalty-opponents-a-hypothetical/714651/94 "2015-03-12T22:57:24Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Just imagine if the putative Pontius Pilate had not had death by crucifixion (or any other method) available to him. Well, then, technically, billions of people wouldn’t have the option of getting salvation by sacrificial atonement. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2015, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-penalty-opponents-a-hypothetical/714651/95 "2015-03-12T22:59:13Z")
So, a question: Let’s say society continues Overton-Windowing some more over the upcoming decades. What’s to say that life imprisonment, decades from now, won’t be viewed in the same light as the death penalty today? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2015, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-penalty-opponents-a-hypothetical/714651/96 "2015-03-13T01:07:57Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > So, a question: > Let’s say society continues Overton-Windowing some more over the upcoming decades. What’s to say that life imprisonment, decades from now, won’t be viewed in the same light as the death penalty today? That could very easily happen. One hopes this means that the entire society is wiser, saner, kinder, and that the murder rate has dropped so far that murderers can get individual in-depth psychological counseling. The most violent offenders would still need to be isolated, to some degree, from the people who otherwise would be their victims. But it wouldn’t have to be a prison as we know them today. Somewhere nice like “The Village.” (“A sufficiently gilded cage is indistinguishable from freedom.”) ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2015, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-penalty-opponents-a-hypothetical/714651/97 "2015-03-13T02:15:45Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Well, then, technically, billions of people wouldn’t have the option of getting salvation by sacrificial atonement. 😃 Yeah, just imagine… ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2015, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-penalty-opponents-a-hypothetical/714651/98 "2015-03-13T02:21:27Z")
> [@Balance](#): > > I think there is a point some posters have touched on, but not really explored–another practical problem beyond the “innocent man” problem. > > The death penalty legitimizes the killing of human beings who do not present a current threat. It signals to society that it’s okay to kill someone if they’ve done something bad. To what extent do people internalize that message? How much does it influence their actions? Is it actually offsetting the deterrent effect of the death penalty? > > I think it poisons our culture. I’ve never bought that argument. It’s akin to saying people should not be imprisoned because kidnapping is wrong. That’s essentially what’s happening to the cons, they’re being kidnapped and held against their will. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2015, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-penalty-opponents-a-hypothetical/714651/99 "2015-03-13T02:56:02Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > I’ve never bought that argument. It’s akin to saying people should not be imprisoned because kidnapping is wrong. That’s essentially what’s happening to the cons, they’re being kidnapped and held against their will. yes, but that can be undone. death can’t. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2015, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-penalty-opponents-a-hypothetical/714651/100 "2015-03-13T03:07:52Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > yes, but that can be undone. death can’t. Which is why I said I oppose the death penalty, because there’s no redress for grievance by the wrongfully convicted. A device like the OP details? Then I’m fine with it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-penalty-opponents-a-hypothetical/714651.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-penalty-opponents-a-hypothetical/714651.md?page=6)