# Death penalty opponents: Afghan massacre soldier an exception? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 6, 2012, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-penalty-opponents-afghan-massacre-soldier-an-exception/617982 "2012-04-06T04:12:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2012, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-penalty-opponents-afghan-massacre-soldier-an-exception/617982/121 "2012-04-08T07:58:35Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Did I miss something? Yes, he was pointing out that all trials must demonstrate that the defendant is guilty beyond reasonable doubt in the US. There have been plenty of carriages of justice where it turned out the defendant was not guilty anyway and there is no way to reimburse them after their death. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2012, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-penalty-opponents-afghan-massacre-soldier-an-exception/617982/122 "2012-04-08T09:06:29Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Post 13 is the classic form of the ad hominem. You addressed me, not the argument. You’ve done nothing but continue in that vein. You’ve got a strange idea of what an ad hominem is. I said > [@](#): > > I was tempted to say this in the Charles Manson thread - if you’re against the death penalty _except_… > > News flash: you’re not actually against the death penalty. Tell me, where is the attack on you rather than your argument? The ‘attack’ is against the premise of your argument, not against you. You addressed this thread to death penalty opponents asking if this constituted an exception. I merely said that if you are opposed to the death penalty _except_.. you aren’t actually against the death penalty. Your response? > [@](#): > > **Dissonance** , I guess I’ll mail back my “anti-death-penalty” badge, then, because that sure is a meaningful argument. Your responses to those not saying things you wanted to hear was equally snide and rude or rolleyeyes without bothering to address their points. If you have chosen to skip any of my responses because I’m not on the cool kid list, you might want to re-read them as well. Your claim that ‘You’ve done nothing but continue in that vein.’ is clearly untrue to anyone reading them. I guess we haven’t crossed paths that much, but I must say from what I’ve known of you your behavior isn’t something I’d have expected. ---
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2012, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-penalty-opponents-afghan-massacre-soldier-an-exception/617982/123 "2012-04-08T10:42:28Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > **Qin** said _beyond_ reasonable doubt. Did I miss something? If there is reasonable doubt there should not be a conviction (as I said). If that exists the case has not been proven beyond reasonable doubt. What Qin said was that he would support the penalty if the guy was convicted beyond reasonable doubt. My point is if there is reasonable doubt no conviction should be recorded anyway. It is tautology. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2012, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-penalty-opponents-afghan-massacre-soldier-an-exception/617982/124 "2012-04-08T11:01:09Z")
The implication of **Qin** ’s statement is that he would support the death penalty in any case where someone has been convicted of murder, since conviction only occurs when the court is satisfied beyond a reasonable doubt that the accused committed the murder. ---
**Author:** ![Ruby\_Slippers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/94ad74/32.png) [@Ruby\_Slippers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruby_Slippers)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2012, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-penalty-opponents-afghan-massacre-soldier-an-exception/617982/125 "2012-04-08T11:17:51Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > \ > I should clarify the reasons I oppose the death penalty: they aren’t conceptual and absolute, but rather they are situated in our specific circumstances. In nearly all circumstances, the death penalty in the modern state does no good. It doesn’t save lives, it doesn’t prevent future crimes, it doesn’t even save money. \*\*\*All it does is to satisfy a need for revenge. Within this context, there’s no good done by executing murderers. On the contrary, satisfying that desire for revenge lessens us, makes us less moral. \*\*\* The execution hurts us, and it’s that harm that makes me oppose the death penalty, not the harm to the murderer. (In addition, of course, there are the issues of uncertainty regarding verdicts, but those don’t apply here). > > My suggestion is therefore that, when executing a murderer might do some good, we might consider doing it. Emphasis added. You seem to be saying that you oppose the death penalty because it satisfies a need for revenge, and yet you are supporting the death penalty in this particular case because it satisfies a need for revenge on the part of people in another country. Or am I misunderstanding you? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2012, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-penalty-opponents-afghan-massacre-soldier-an-exception/617982/126 "2012-04-08T14:45:18Z")
> [@Ruby\_Slippers](#): > > Emphasis added. You seem to be saying that you oppose the death penalty because it satisfies a need for revenge, and yet you are supporting the death penalty in this particular case because it satisfies a need for revenge on the part of people in another country. Or am I misunderstanding you? Interesting point. On the one hand, you’re right: what you say is at the core of my proposition. On the other hand, it’s only the beginning of the proposition. While I’m exploring advocating the death penalty against this guy (again, not supporting it really, just looking at the idea) in part because it’ll satisfy the need for vengeance among some of the occupied Afghan people, that’s not the goal. The goal is to prevent some of those people from taking up arms against the US; the goal is to prevent further bloodshed. If there were no such goal, then there’d be no question in my mind but that this is a bad idea. But when executing a murderer has a real chance of preventing further murders, I think the question develops much more of a gray area. Beyond all that, though, I’m wondering whether I’ve got an unfair take on Afghans. If I expect Americans not to give in to their base desire for vengeance, and if I’m willing to accept some emotional anguish on the part of American relatives of murder victims in order to hold them to that standard, is it a double-standard for me not to expect the same of Afghans? Or is it just a recognition of the reality: the US isn’t an occupied country, and there’s not an active military campaign going on within our territory, and people very rarely respond with murderous violence to real or imagined slights by the state. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2012, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-penalty-opponents-afghan-massacre-soldier-an-exception/617982/127 "2012-04-08T15:00:48Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > In this case, then, a consequence of not executing him is that more people will die. Says you. > [@](#): > > I don’t have clear answers. What do other opponents of the death penalty think–is there ever cause for exceptions, and if so, is this such a case? No and no. ---
**Author:** ![Ruby\_Slippers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/94ad74/32.png) [@Ruby\_Slippers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruby_Slippers)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2012, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-penalty-opponents-afghan-massacre-soldier-an-exception/617982/128 "2012-04-08T15:05:24Z")
Although I understand that your goal is to prevent further bloodshed, I don’t agree that the outcome of this trial will prevent\*\*\* or incite \*\*\*further bloodshed. I think there is going to be further bloodshed in Afghanistan as long as our military remains there, and I don’t think it would be possible to identify any single incident as the driving force for any other single incident or series of incidents. It seems to me that Afghans who feel a need to retaliate for Bales’ actions are not likely to wait for his trial to see if the death penalty will be imposed. And even if the death penalty is imposed and carried out, I don’t believe that will be regarded as sufficient by those already opposed to American military presence. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2012, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-penalty-opponents-afghan-massacre-soldier-an-exception/617982/129 "2012-04-08T15:23:02Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Beyond all that, though, I’m wondering whether I’ve got an unfair take on Afghans. If I expect Americans not to give in to their base desire for vengeance, and if I’m willing to accept some emotional anguish on the part of American relatives of murder victims in order to hold them to that standard, is it a double-standard for me not to expect the same of Afghans? Or is it just a recognition of the reality: the US isn’t an occupied country, and there’s not an active military campaign going on within our territory, and people very rarely respond with murderous violence to real or imagined slights by the state. Make sure you understand Afghan culture before you go around killing people. I’m no expert, but my understanding is that the way things work in that part of the world is that you pay off the relatives. That’s what we did. [$50,000 per death. $11,000 per wounded.](http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-57404080/u.s-pays-afghans-$50k-per-shooting-death/) ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2012, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-penalty-opponents-afghan-massacre-soldier-an-exception/617982/130 "2012-04-08T16:14:04Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Make sure you understand Afghan culture before you go around killing people. > > I’m no expert, but my understanding is that the way things work in that part of the world is that you pay off the relatives. That’s what we did. > > [$50,000 per death. $11,000 per wounded.](http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-57404080/u.s-pays-afghans-$50k-per-shooting-death/) Yeah, I’m aware of that. And I’m aware of my own ignorance of Afghan culture. These are good points. ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2012, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-penalty-opponents-afghan-massacre-soldier-an-exception/617982/131 "2012-04-08T16:54:30Z")
Not interested in the thread but love the OP title. If that’s the way the law works in the USA, good luck with that. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2012, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-penalty-opponents-afghan-massacre-soldier-an-exception/617982/132 "2012-04-08T23:04:11Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > The implication of **Qin** ’s statement is that he would support the death penalty in any case where someone has been convicted of murder, since conviction only occurs when the court is satisfied beyond a reasonable doubt that the accused committed the murder. This exactly. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-penalty-opponents-afghan-massacre-soldier-an-exception/617982/133 "2012-04-09T01:48:18Z")
Against it generally, against it here. Don’t see any probability that I’ll be for it in any case. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-penalty-opponents-afghan-massacre-soldier-an-exception/617982.md?page=6)