# Death penalty opponents; how would you reform prisons and criminal justice? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 22, 2013, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-penalty-opponents-how-would-you-reform-prisons-and-criminal-justice/666879 "2013-08-22T15:48:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-penalty-opponents-how-would-you-reform-prisons-and-criminal-justice/666879/41 "2013-08-23T22:03:23Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Definitely no to War on Drugs imprisonments. > Set some sort of reasonable level of equivalency between nonviolent financial-type crimes and other ones - say, (arbitrarily, not hung up on exact figure), that any fraud \> 1x average national income is going to be treated as a jailable offence just like theft, 10x = say, assault, 100x = manslaughter, 1000x = murder. This lets you off with a fine for passing a $250 check, jails career small-time embezzlers for enough to be discouraging, but gets you _serious_ jail time for your Maddoffs. I agree. If it were up to me, I legalize all drugs. Using drugs may be stupid but I don’t see why it should be a crime. I do feel property crime should remain criminalized. Property crimes have victims even if they’re generally not hurt as badly as the victims of violent crimes. One suggestion I’d make is your scale should have some kind of cumulative effect. Somebody writing their first bad check for $250 might get a fine. Somebody writing their twentieth bad check for $250 might need some jail time. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-penalty-opponents-how-would-you-reform-prisons-and-criminal-justice/666879/42 "2013-08-23T22:08:11Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Focus on rehabilitation in prisons- especially identifying which individuals can be rehabilitated, and which can’t. The reality is you can’t rehabilitate somebody else. You can just offer people opportunities and assist them in rehabilitating themselves. Until they decide they want to stop being a criminal you’re not going to be able to stop them from being a criminal. All you can do with somebody like that is limit the opportunities they have for committing crimes. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-penalty-opponents-how-would-you-reform-prisons-and-criminal-justice/666879/43 "2013-08-23T22:20:21Z")
> [@Max\_Torque](#): > > I just completed a plea bargain deal with two guys who went on a burglary spree, robbing houses from Nebraska, North Dakota, Kansas, and Oklahoma before we finally caught up to them in Texas. Cleaned out about $22,000 worth of stuff from just one house. > > So, I guess we’ll just fine them, since it was “just property crime”, tell the victims it’s all good, and go our separate ways, then? Well, they DO have $22,000, so I guess they can pay the fine… ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-penalty-opponents-how-would-you-reform-prisons-and-criminal-justice/666879/44 "2013-08-24T01:43:11Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > And completely unconstitutional. It would violate prisoners 5th and 14th Amendment rights. How does sentencing a person convicted of fraud to 2 + [1d4](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dice) years in prison deny them due process? Prosecutorial and judicial discretion creates this sort of situation anyway. Or is there some other aspect of the 5th and 14th you have in mind? ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-penalty-opponents-how-would-you-reform-prisons-and-criminal-justice/666879/45 "2013-08-24T01:47:40Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The reason other countries have fewer prisoners is because they have fewer criminals. Cite? Surely the US’s lengthy sentencing has something to do with it. ---
**Author:** ![filmstar-en](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/50afbb/32.png) [@filmstar-en](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmstar-en)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-penalty-opponents-how-would-you-reform-prisons-and-criminal-justice/666879/46 "2013-08-24T13:56:42Z")
The US is rather different from other OECD countries in that firearm ownership is legal for the general public, often with few checks on the character of the purchaser. This leads to a level of gun homocides and other serious crime that is quite exceptional amongst developed countries. Given that it is an intractable constitutional issue, it is not a situation that is going to change any time soon. However, campaigns like the War on Drugs was a political issue raised during the Nixon era and became established as part of public policy. Given the enormous expense of this policy and its dubious benefits, there is scope for a change to a system of regulation and treating it as a public health issue. This would have an effect far beyond the borders of the USA. ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2013, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-penalty-opponents-how-would-you-reform-prisons-and-criminal-justice/666879/47 "2013-09-02T16:01:26Z")
I find it curious that the professor includes blackmail with the violent crimes, yet doesn’t include fraud, theft, etc… IOW, he’s full of poo. The whole point of locking up thieves, etc… is because they are predators, not because people have a great moral outrage against people who would take something of miniscule value that they demand laws to protect them against a person who eats a grape in the store without paying for it. ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2013, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-penalty-opponents-how-would-you-reform-prisons-and-criminal-justice/666879/48 "2013-09-03T00:25:20Z")
> [@Rachellelogram](#): > > Rehabilitation of prisoners. No more corruption in prison guards. Shorter sentences. No more purely drug-based incarcerations, no matter what the drug. A complete change in prison culture, similar to Norway’s setup. > > It’s a pipe dream, but it lets me sleep at night. Yeah it does sound pretty good and if we could do that in Australia I would be all for it BUT, isn’t there always a but! We (AUS & USA) need to address the social issues that drive people to the life of an outlaw in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2013, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-penalty-opponents-how-would-you-reform-prisons-and-criminal-justice/666879/49 "2013-09-03T00:26:24Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Personally, I’d rather spend the rest of my life in prison than be executed. Well either way you would, one would just be longer… ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2013, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-penalty-opponents-how-would-you-reform-prisons-and-criminal-justice/666879/50 "2013-09-03T00:32:42Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Thanks. I always think too about what it would be like for someone to kill my wife or my child or my sister or a good friend and then to see them a few years later walking around the supermarket or whatever. Or even worse, perhaps, to have someone kill a loved one and find out that they had previously done a stint in prison for manslaughter. Once you end someone else’s life without justification, to me you have cashed your ticket to be allowed to live a free life. That’s why we remove justice from mob retaliation. Law and crimes must be judged dispassionately, this is the only way we can have an effective and fair justice system. This is why I am against victim impact statements being used during sentencing, yes I think they should be read to the convicted criminal but after sentencing has been determined. Manslaughter is a tricky one, this can include lapses of judgement, dumb teenage driving etc etc. Things that most of us have been guilty of at some stage. Now locking a baby in the car on a hot day is about as bad as it gets in a manslaughter case but does it justify locking someone away for life? Who funds this? I would rather my tax dollars were spent on schools, health etc etc. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-penalty-opponents-how-would-you-reform-prisons-and-criminal-justice/666879.md?page=2)