Death Row emptied in Illinois, courtesy of soon-ex Gov. Ryan

Great Debates
61

I used to be fervently in favour of the death penalty. I’m opposed to it now for just about every reason cited by the brave governor of Illinois.

Take the OJ case for example. Prosecutors decided not to go after the death penalty because they felt they couldn’t get such a severe conviction due to his POPULARITY. It’s quite clear that if you’re on the margins of the American dream that the system has a different justice program for you than if you’re part of the “establishment”. When the difference translates to life or death then the disparity is completely intolerable for even a minute.

Today, having always accepted that there is no justification for the taking of life save self defense including the need for closure for victims, I see no reason to allocate to the state the right to murder. Revenge is not an answer to the problem.

62

I am a conservative. I believe we are all responsible for our own actions no matter the realities of our past or present. If we break the law, we should pay the consequences. To allow someone who has committed a crime to go actually or relatively unpunished is a great injustice to his or her victim(s) and society. The way I see it the issue is about security, justice and punishment. The ultimate punishment is the death penalty but it does not produce the ultimate justice. The ultimate justice is when the criminal reforms his or her soul and makes restitution to the victims. Unfortunately, it is clear to me that any bureaucratic governmental organization is not capable of producing such ultimate justice so we are left mostly with punishment. The three goals of punishment in our criminal justice system are deterrence (discourage criminal behavior), security (keep criminals off the streets) and retribution (extract societal revenge against the criminal). The goal of any particular punishment can be one or any combination of these types.

I am against any punishment where the sole or primary goal is retribution. The death penalty is clearly one such punishment. The death penalty has had no statistical effect on murder rates and does not add anything to society except to feed our ancient blood feud desires.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/DeterMRates.html

The worst problem with the death penalty is that we have almost certainly murdered innocent people. Even though the list of innocent people that were on death row does not prove we executed the innocent, any reasonable person would have to conclude that if juries have been and still are sending innocent people to death roll that some of them have been subsequently murdered (executed) by the state.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/Innocentlist.html

We cannot and should not support any system that murders innocent people. I don’t have any faith that the justice system can be reformed so that innocent people will not be executed. I don’t understand how my fellow conservatives can believe the government can work well enough to 100% guarantee only the truly guilty are put to death. To say we should be willing to put up with murdering some innocents for the common good is just plain cynical and mean.

63

This isn’t all cut and dry as you apparently think it is. There are more factors than just guilt and innocence that need to be investigated. The problem that the death penalty is more often than not given to african-americans is so noteworthy I previously mentioned it. We are working on a flawed legal system. To put this in better perspective, let’s just say that an african american and a european american are convicted of similar crimes. Also, the race of the victims is also a consideration that has been (wrongfully) shown to be a factor for death penalty vs imprisonment. Race and the Death Penalty

64

But there was. Had the governor allowed the “smoking gun cases” to remain on death row, then the message would be that the governor himself was the best person to adjudicate the fate of death row inmates which would have been arrogant indeed.

The whole point of the governor’s exercise was to highlite that the state of Illinois justice system fucked up big time so that the irreversible product of this system could not be upheld. This was an indictment of the judicial system, not a judgement of individual cases.

65

Stinkpalm said:

Yeah, damn those people who are “stuck” on that minor issue.

There are certainly a few who are definitely guilty. The trick is in figuring out who they are. Some of those who Ryan pardoned before giving the blanket commutations had confessed to the crime. Now many people would think that’s pretty solid evidence they did it. Not so. Turns out they were tortured by police before they confessed. If cops are willing to torture somebody into confessing to a crime they didn’t commit, how can you be so sure that the “smoking gun” really was in their hands like the cop said it was? Is it likely? Yes. I’m no conspiracist – quite the opposite. But evidence has shown us that cops and prosecutors have conspired to put away – and even execute – innocent men.

So again, I have to ask, how can we be so sure? We can’t, except in a few very specific cases. But dividing out those cases in a system that has been shown to be horrendous isn’t easy. A blanket commutation keeps all of them behind bars, but makes sure we don’t execute an innocent man.

As grienspace said in the message just after you, I used to be in favor of the death penalty. Now, because of all of these reasons, I am not. Not because I’m against it in theory, but in practice. When we set more death row inmates free because they are actually innocent than we send to death, there is something seriously screwed up in the system. And I want no part of executing people until and unless those flaws are addressed. Do I think there are some people who should be executed? Yes. Do I think our court system can currently determine just who those people are? No.

66

I think it’s important to understand understand just how screwed up the situation was here. The original moratorium was initially issued because the state had set more men free due to actual innocence than it had executed since the death penaly’s reinstatement.

A mentally retarded man named Anthony Porter was just hours away from execution when he was proven actually innocent by a group of journalism students from Northwestern State. He had previously had his death penalty put on hold for an IQ test and competency determination, otherwise, he would already have been dead.

I want to reiterate that he wasn’t set free because of an investigation by the State of Illinois, not by a crack team of defense attorneys, but by a class project of college journalism students. Take these two factors into account with the four more innocent men on death row and the rabid police misconduct in some of the convictions and the governors’s actions become a little more understandable.

67

There are so many different issues involved in this debate, I want to make a couple points, and then move on to the meat of the discussion.

First, as I pointed out in my earlier post, Gov. Ryan’s motivations for the commutations are, at best, questionable. However, I won’t dwell on the festering evil that is Gov. Ryan, or his twisted motive for taking this action, other than to point out to st. pauler that Ryan was elected (after lying through is teeth for months about the license for bribes scandal so that he could get elected), there was no indication whatsoever that he would take this action. He was pro-death penalty, which made a difference in the election to many downstate Illinois voters. I also would like to point out that Ryan is only slightly less of a dirtball than Joe Burge.

Second, I’m going to try not to discuss the propriety of the death penalty. Part of my distaste for Ryan’s actions have nothing to do with the death penalty at all. If you are against the death penalty, this may be a great action to you, but one’s stance on the death penalty does not need to influence one’s judgment on the propriety of a governor turning his back on his constituents, betraying his promises, slapping thousands of jurors, judges, prosecutors, defense attorneys, and the entire criminal justice system in the face, and ignoring a case-by-case review of the inmates and ordering a blanket commutation. FWIW, I think the death penalty is stupid, but I also believe in the democratic process and justice, both of which Ryan singlehandedly ignored.

With that out of the way, here are some quick points I’d like to make regarding certain arguments that have come up:

– How can we allow the death penalty when there were 12/17/25 innocent people on it.

With the exception of Ryan’s Friday pardons, every single innocent person released from death row were done so by the criminal justice system that Ryan says is so wrong. I challenge everyone who has argued that 10% of Death Row inmates were exonerated to show me ONE case of an innocent person being put to death in Illinois in the modern capital punishment system. The fact that these innocent people were released shows me that the system, as a whole, has worked quite well to make sure no innocent people have been executed (by the State that is). Saying an innocent person has been exonerated must mean that somebody else is innocent ignores the case-by-case evaluation that Ryan SHOULD have done. That is how the criminal justice system should, and does, make the determination as to who is not guilty and who is a “monster.”

– Ryan’s commutations were exercised pursuant to a proper checks and balances system.

Just because the governor has the power to pardon, does not mean exercising it is not an abuse of power. Instead of commuting the sentences, he could have simply pardoned every single person on Death Row. He had that power, but exercising it would be an abuse of the power. The pardon power should only be used in extreme cases where justice would be served. If the victims of Burge’s torture are innocent, pardoning them would be a proper use of the power, and I support it. However, a blanket commutation overrides the will of the people in a undemocratic way.

– The death penalty system is broken.

This is a good argument, and I am all in favor of some of the reforms that have been suggested. Limiting the eligibility factors, outlawing the execution of the mentally retarded, and creating funding for a capital defense bar are all reforms I’d support. However, I would vehemently argue that, just because it can be reformed, doesn’t mean those convicted under it should be commuted. I do not believe that system is broken, I do not believe it is arbitrary and capricious. Ryan went through the cases, chose some that he believed should receive a lesser sentence, and chose some to pardon. He made the determination on a case-by-case basis, which should have been done. But to go a step further and commute all the other cases is reckless, and solves NOTHING. It doesn’t fix the system, it doesn’t free any innocent people, it only ignores the case by case determinations in favor for a politically motivated decision.

There is more, but time is a tyrant. Kinda like one man undoing the democratic system.

68

You know, it’s one thing to pontificate on the horrors of capital punishment on a message board, but here are just a few examples of what these murderers did IRL:

Fedell Caffey shot a pregnant woman in her home in 1995, cut the full term baby from her womb, and stabbed her two children. His accomplice, Jacqueline Williams, is also on Death Row.

Dorothy Williams strangled a 97 yr old woman with a scarf in her CHA senior home so she could steal a small stereo.

Lorenzo Fayne stabbed or strangled four girls between the ages of 9 and 17. He sexually assaulted one victim and molested the body of another.

All info from today’s Chicago Tribune, you can look it up.

If Ryan were governor 9 years ago, his blanket commutation would have included John Wayne Gacy. No police torture or intimidation there, dude had 33 dead bodies in his house. Gacy shouldn’t have got the death penalty?

If the soon to be ex-Governor, and possible future jailbird himself, had any integrity, he would have only commuted those sentences where there existed a reasonable doubt about someone’s guilt, or as a result of their treatment by law enforcement. The likes of Caffey, Williams, Williams, and Fayne? No.

69

Correct me if I’m wrong, but the guy who allegedly confessed to the crime to exonerate Porter is now recanting his confession saying that the investigator from Northwestern promised him money and that he wouldn’t actually have to serve much time? I’m not saying that Porter is guilty, I just found that part of it interesting.

70

Well, Hamlet your demand for proof of an innocent person executed is a pretty safe bet. Testimony from the “plaintiff” being inadmissable on the grounds of being, well, dead. And who is going to go to the trouble?

But are we to understand from your challenge that you would recant if it were so proven? Show you one innocent corpse and you will be satisfied? Well, in thirteen cases it seems that only be sheer luck it was otherwise. But they must be dead to satisfy your need? Why? They were unjustly convicted, weren’t they?

And what does it say about the “system” if a bunch of college kids, without the legal expertise we must presume the prosecutors had, can prove them false? Take your best pick, was it malice or incompetence? Which would you most readily forgive?

Further, you recitation of the horror of crimes committed is utterly vapid if you cannot be sure that the men sentenced for those crimes, however awful, are the men who commited them. And you can’t. However awful those crimes may be, that has no bearing on the question. Executing an innocent man is no more moral if the crime is murder than if the crime is shoplifting.

71

To add one thing to what 'lucy said:
Let’s not forget that the heinousness of a crime is only magnified if the wrong person is executed. The true perp goes unpunished and another innocent victim is added to the tally.

72

I used to be for the death penalty. But as I’ve grown up, I realize that killing someone for killing someone doesn’t make sense.

I’m especially against it after finding out how imperfect it is. Death is an absolute punishment. Unless we refine the system so that it becomes absolutely perfect, capital punishment will always be an inappropriate sentence.

I’m especially especially against it after reading this article. When “justice” begins to blur the line between the good guys and the bad guys, that’s when we have a BIG problem.

I don’t know anything about Ryan, but I think his decision was a very good one.

73

All 33 were innocent victims, but I can’t see how using this case justifies the state killing more innocent victims.

Sure he deserves to get his, but for every case like this where the evidence is unchallengeable there may many more where the evidence has been gathered incorrectly, or simply a suspect has been set up.

How does the heinessness of some criminals equate to the justification of the state murdering innocent people, this argument is just a deflection of the real issue.

Those people who have been declared innocent have had their cases reinvestigated properly, many of the others would have been executed long before their cases would have been reviewed, and once they are dead the impetus to investigate the correctness of their cases would dissappear, death would not change the fact that they might well be innocent.

The will of the people was to kill all those convicted of capital offences, or maybe it is the will of the people not to kill those who have been mistakenly or maliciously convicted, which is it ?
The easy answer is to execute those who have committed the crimes, but the issue of wrongful conviction and the subsequent deaths of wrongfully convicted people are inextricably bound together.

Not all those 157 former death row prisoners have had their cases checked, some are without doubt guilty as hell, probably most, but so far we have a 10% error rate which is likely to become even larger as more cases are reviewed.

For all those naysayers I also ask you, what figure of wrongful executions as a percentage of the total are you prepared to accept ?

74

The thing is, in 99% of the cases, we ARE sure who committed the crimes. They were convicted under a legal standard that requires proof beyond a reasonable doubt. There were judges, juries, public defenders, etc. involved. And the appeals court, and the Supreme Court.

Fedell Caffey killed that woman, sliced her baby from her womb, and killed her two other children. This is a fact. Why would you want to commute his sentence?

75

Snarky, but untrue. I don’t recall any person executed who went to their death without having their allegations of innocence and their “testimony” being reviewed by appellate courts.

There are thousands of people working on just these issues.

Would my feelings regarding the death penalty change if somebody could show an innocent person was executed? Seeing as how I’m not pro-death penalty, It would certainly strengthen the argument. My point was the fallaciousness of the argument that innocent people could be executed when it has never happened in Illinois in the modern capital punishment system.

Yes they were wrongly convicted, yes they were sentenced to death. Yes those are horrible injustices that were, eventually, righted. Neither of those change the fact that no innocent person has been executed under the death penalty.

First, they weren’t “just college kids,” it was a well-funded operation with investigators and legal experts. I cannot possibly argue that no innocent person has been convicted of a crime, it, unfortunately happens. But I have yet to be convinced that any innocent person has been put to death.

Your biases only give me two options? A erred conviction can only happen through incompetence or malice. I choose ©.

I’m having problems finding my “recitation of the horror of crimes committed.” Kindly point it out to me. If you’re trying to pull a Bush “preemptive strike” on the argument that nobody, no matter how evil the crime, deserves the death penalty, no amount of debate or fact citing is going to change your mind. I’d never advocate the execution of an innocent man, so please stop trying to say otherwise.

76

Zero percent. That said, what evidence do you have that there have been any wrongful executions?

77

I hadn’t heard that, but I would be surprised the guy didn’t recant a videotaped murder confession.

78

milroyj said:

99%? What an interesting figure, considering that we’ve had more overturned than put to death to date. Just because they were convicted doesn’t mean they did it. That’s pretty much what this entire thread has been about. Have you been paying attention? I have to figure you haven’t since I posted a message and then, a little later, you posted this:

Which was, of course, a point I specifically addressed in my message but ignored in yours…

79

So, instead of commuting a death sentence to life in prison, he should have given all of them the equivalent of new trials? Now who’s overthrowing the judgement of the courts?

They’re all still guilty, and they’re all still locked up for the rest of their lives. Do you think the parole boards will look kindly on someone who escaped the death penalty in a blanket commutation?

80

And there is a difference between being convicted, and being executed. Yes, the “system” is flawed, but wrongly convicted people do get their sentences overturned. Unless you have a cite for an innocent person being executed in Illinois?

**

Then we agree on Gov. Ryan.