# Death Star vs. Starkiller Base: both are unrealistic, the latter especially so (open spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 1, 2016, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-star-vs-starkiller-base-both-are-unrealistic-the-latter-especially-so-open-spoilers/741934 "2016-01-01T19:48:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-star-vs-starkiller-base-both-are-unrealistic-the-latter-especially-so-open-spoilers/741934/21 "2016-01-01T21:01:41Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Damn right you can, especially in sf and Fantasy. > > Star Wars does. It’s set by it’s very nature in a galaxy where such a device makes sense. You’re bringing in things in our universe, not Star Wars’. > > You just need enough of an imagination to understand this. You are in essence saying that _anything_ fictional is arbitrarily above criticism. I don’t agree with that logic. And sure I’m bringing in things from our universe, pending the explication of different rules in the fictional universe. For example, when Luke starts up the lightsaber for the first time, I think, Wow, that thing looks dangerous. It could cut your hand right off. It’s impressive. I don’t need the movie to _tell_ me that. But if later on someone stabs someone with a lightsaber and it does nothing, then a reason needs to be given for that that makes sense. It does no good to say, “Oh well, you were just making a dumb assumption based on our universe.” ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-star-vs-starkiller-base-both-are-unrealistic-the-latter-especially-so-open-spoilers/741934/22 "2016-01-01T21:03:57Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > What? No. Where are you getting this shit? They’re a massive military organization, with vast resources, in control of multiple planets. They’ve been around and in control long enough that they’ve got a giant army of grown men they kidnapped as infants and raised to be soldiers. That could still be ISIS scale as compared to the previous Empire. > [@](#): > > Seriously, if you want to talk about the movie, go see the movie first. It ain’t that long. I’ve read the entire plot through reviews. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-star-vs-starkiller-base-both-are-unrealistic-the-latter-especially-so-open-spoilers/741934/23 "2016-01-01T21:06:21Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > That could still be ISIS scale as compared to the previous Empire. If you control more than one planet, you’re not “ISIS like” in any rational sense of the term. > [@](#): > > I’ve read the entire plot through reviews. That’s not remotely the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-star-vs-starkiller-base-both-are-unrealistic-the-latter-especially-so-open-spoilers/741934/24 "2016-01-01T21:08:28Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > It seemed pretty clear to me that the First Order is in control of a significant chunk of the galaxy outside the Republic’s jurisdiction. They’re not rag-tag renegades - they have a stable enough territorial holding that they’ve had twenty-ish years to abduct infants and raise them to be killing machines, and to build up an officer corps of fanatically loyal types like General Hux. I’m not sure how realistic _that_ is if we accept as fact that the Rebellion actually defeated the Empire in any significant way. It seems to me that Disney needs to pick one or the other: • The events of RotJ were only a flesh wound to the Empire. It had to regroup and ended up renaming itself, but it is basically nearly as powerful as the Empire and can raise huge armies and build things like the Starkiller. Or • The Rebellion did in fact defeat the Empire, but out of the old pieces and ideas the First Order has arisen, and it is _not_ as powerful as the Empire but threatens to become so. The movie seems to mash up both of these scenarios in an inarticulate way. ---
**Author:** ![dracoi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@dracoi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dracoi)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-star-vs-starkiller-base-both-are-unrealistic-the-latter-especially-so-open-spoilers/741934/25 "2016-01-01T21:11:21Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > I’ve read the entire plot through reviews. If you’d actually seen the movie, then you’d know just how much the reviews are not helping you. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-star-vs-starkiller-base-both-are-unrealistic-the-latter-especially-so-open-spoilers/741934/26 "2016-01-01T21:11:36Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > If you control more than one planet, you’re not “ISIS like” in any rational sense of the term. It’s a matter of scale. Holding a few planets in the huge galaxy is analogous to ISIS holding the territory it does on a single planet. Key point: The level of control the First Order has is not made clear in the movie. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-star-vs-starkiller-base-both-are-unrealistic-the-latter-especially-so-open-spoilers/741934/27 "2016-01-01T21:15:47Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > That could still be ISIS scale as compared to the previous Empire. Eh, no. It’s pretty clear that the First Order are the remnant forces of the Empire. The 2nd Death Star and a large number of imperial ships were blown up at the end of _Return of the Jedi_, but the Empire certainly still had millions of troops and vast resources. This is made clear when Kylo Ren comments that they recovered most of the map to Skywalker from old empire databases. And it was already mentioned above that they’ve been around long enough that they’re kidnapping children and conditioning them to be Stormtroopers. John Boyega is 23, and he was kidnapped “like all Stormtroopers.” One imagines that the rebellion used a period of chaos and infighting among the remaining generals/admirals to secure control of the senate. Snoake would have been the one to rise to the top and consolidate power. The First Order isn’t ISIS. The First Order is the Third Reich. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-star-vs-starkiller-base-both-are-unrealistic-the-latter-especially-so-open-spoilers/741934/28 "2016-01-01T21:23:12Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > I’m not sure how realistic _that_ is if we accept as fact that the Rebellion actually defeated the Empire in any significant way. The Rebels killed the Emperor and his right hand, and destroyed their primary battleship. That’s a significant blow, but it does _not_ equal the total collapse of the Imperial polity any more than the killing of Osama bin Laden meant the end of al-Qaeda. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-star-vs-starkiller-base-both-are-unrealistic-the-latter-especially-so-open-spoilers/741934/29 "2016-01-01T21:34:50Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Actually, it makes the most sense for all the major command-and-control interfaces to be located relatively near each other, precisely so that the people who are supposed to be working there don’t have to go on four hour jeep rides to get from one part of their job to another. > > It’s not clear what sort of a support system a weapon that powerful would need, given that it’s an entirely imaginary technology. 99% of the mass of that station might be the power source necessary to fire a laser that big. I agree with what you say, but canon has described the structure of the base in detail, and it doesn’t match your hypothetical here: > **[DS-1 Orbital Battle Station](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/DS-1_Orbital_Battle_Station)** > > The DS-1 Orbital Battle Station, or mk. 1 deep-space mobile battlestation better known as the Death Star or Death Star I, and known to the public as the Imperial Planetary Ore Extractor, was a massive Imperial battlestation and superweapon with a... "The Death Star was said to comprise eighty-four separate internal levels, stacked south to north. Each level was separated into 257 sub-levels. A nominal number of sub levels were then to be stacked around the surface of the sphere, encompassing the inner stacked levels. A number of the Death Star’s docking bays were reserved as executive docking bays for high-ranking personnel, featuring larger facilities and more significant defenses. Facilities included parks, shops, and other amenities for the Human crew, as well as numerous maintenance necessities such as trash compactors…" > [@](#): > > A three-meter wide exhaust hole that you need literal magic powers to hit? > > No, I don’t think that’s terribly convenient at all. The idea that anything of that size could be taken out with one bomb doesn’t make sense. The thing is so big that even a Hiroshima-size nuke would just put a dent in it. Yeah, I get that the port leads to a key reactor (which is a dumb design flaw, but anyway), but the X-wing’s bombs, whatever they are, are not that powerful. That’s throwing a couple AA batteries into a fission reactor and expecting it to blow it up. It’s not like gunpowder, which has a lot of potential energy that you don’t want to access until it’s in guns. It’s a reactor–it’s already reacting. Throwing a ultra-miniscule fraction of its power into it or onto it should do absolutely nothing. > [@](#): > > How do you know how big the First Order is? How do you know that it’s not big enough to build something like Starkiller? How big does an interstellar empire need to be to pull that off? Those are good questions the movie doesn’t care to answer or integrate well with the previous movies. ---
**Author:** ![dracoi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@dracoi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dracoi)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-star-vs-starkiller-base-both-are-unrealistic-the-latter-especially-so-open-spoilers/741934/30 "2016-01-01T21:35:36Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > Key point: The level of control the First Order has is not made clear in the movie. What the movie makes clear is that they DID build it. Therefore, you should extrapolate from that fact to conclude that they control as much of the galaxy as you think they need. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-star-vs-starkiller-base-both-are-unrealistic-the-latter-especially-so-open-spoilers/741934/31 "2016-01-01T21:41:47Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > Eh, no. > > It’s pretty clear that the First Order are the remnant forces of the Empire. The 2nd Death Star and a large number of imperial ships were blown up at the end of _Return of the Jedi_, but the Empire certainly still had millions of troops and vast resources. I know what the canon is that has been thrown out. I agree that what the Rebellion accomplished in RotJ would not, realistically, end a true galactic empire. But the Rebellion at the end of the RotJ is indeed shown as “winning.” Both the canon up to now and the new Ep. VII canon greatly diminish that victory, but at least until now Luke Skywalker gets to fulfill his destiny as total Jedi badass, and good generally wins over evil. Ep. VII basically turns Luke, Leia, and Han into total defeated losers. > [@](#): > > The First Order isn’t ISIS. The First Order is the Third Reich. But there still _is_ a Republic, right, that has some degree of control? ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-star-vs-starkiller-base-both-are-unrealistic-the-latter-especially-so-open-spoilers/741934/32 "2016-01-01T21:42:49Z")
> [@dracoi](#): > > What the movie makes clear is that they DID build it. Therefore, you should extrapolate from that fact to conclude that they control as much of the galaxy as you think they need. Yes, well, that would basically be all of it, which seems in contradiction with other elements of the movie. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-star-vs-starkiller-base-both-are-unrealistic-the-latter-especially-so-open-spoilers/741934/33 "2016-01-01T21:58:13Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > The Death Star was said to comprise eighty-four separate internal levels, stacked south to north. Each level was separated into 257 sub-levels. A nominal number of sub levels were then to be stacked around the surface of the sphere, encompassing the inner stacked levels. A number of the Death Star’s docking bays were reserved as executive docking bays for high-ranking personnel, featuring larger facilities and more significant defenses. The section you’re quoting is from the Legends tab of the page, which, you will note, is _not_ part of the new canon. > [@](#): > > But there still _is_ a Republic, right, that has some degree of control? Yes, and there _is_ a Republic of Iraq, that has some degree of control. How is it that they don’t control the entire Euphrates Delta when we clearly saw at the end of the war that Emperor Saddam was killed and his army was defeated? ---
**Author:** ![dracoi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@dracoi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dracoi)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-star-vs-starkiller-base-both-are-unrealistic-the-latter-especially-so-open-spoilers/741934/34 "2016-01-01T22:01:04Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > Yes, well, that would basically be all of it, which seems in contradiction with other elements of the movie. Which other elements? The New Order “destroys the Republic” by blowing up five planets/moons in a single star system. Other than that, we know that there is a Resistance (aided by the Republic) and that the New Order does not control the Outer Rim. The Empire never controlled the Outer Rim either, nor did the pre-Empire Republic. As for the Resistance, it’s shown controlling a hidden base on a single planet of its own. Using what we know from the movie alone, then, the New Order could be as large as two star systems smaller than the Empire. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-star-vs-starkiller-base-both-are-unrealistic-the-latter-especially-so-open-spoilers/741934/35 "2016-01-01T22:08:45Z")
> [@dracoi](#): > > Which other elements? > > The New Order “destroys the Republic” by blowing up five planets/moons in a single star system. Other than that, we know that there is a Resistance (aided by the Republic) and that the New Order does not control the Outer Rim. The Empire never controlled the Outer Rim either, nor did the pre-Empire Republic. As for the Resistance, it’s shown controlling a hidden base on a single planet of its own. > > Using what we know from the movie alone, then, the New Order could be as large as two star systems smaller than the Empire. Yeah, all of that: • Doesn’t make a lot of sense and • More importantly, is a very depressing continuation of where we left off from RotJ. But I agree: if the First Order is as powerful as the Empire was, then it could build the Starkiller base. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-star-vs-starkiller-base-both-are-unrealistic-the-latter-especially-so-open-spoilers/741934/36 "2016-01-01T22:15:18Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > Those are good questions the movie doesn’t care to answer or integrate well with the previous movies. How do you know? You haven’t seen it. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-star-vs-starkiller-base-both-are-unrealistic-the-latter-especially-so-open-spoilers/741934/37 "2016-01-01T22:20:26Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > How do you know? You haven’t seen it. I read the graphic novel. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-star-vs-starkiller-base-both-are-unrealistic-the-latter-especially-so-open-spoilers/741934/38 "2016-01-01T22:32:23Z")
Well, Starkiller base is ludicrous even by Star Wars standards, where at least your unstoppable superweapon once had to be in the general vicinity of the target. This thing can create a beam of… glowing red light so much faster than the speed of light it can target other star systems, is precise enough to hits specific planets in those star systems. heck,m it can actually split the beam to hit multiple targets… somehow. This beam can also be seen from planets it somehow goes past, and you can see the explosion which blows up planets from planets in other star systems in real time. Space travel was always a bit wonky in Star Wars. It took the a vague amount of time but always exactly as the plot required, but this seems to be a weird trademark of J. J. Abrams. He did this in both Star Trek movies as well. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-star-vs-starkiller-base-both-are-unrealistic-the-latter-especially-so-open-spoilers/741934/39 "2016-01-01T22:43:44Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Well, Starkiller base is ludicrous even by Star Wars standards, where at least your unstoppable superweapon once had to be in the general vicinity of the target. This thing can create a beam of… glowing red light so much faster than the speed of light it can target other star systems, is precise enough to hits specific planets in those star systems. heck,m it can actually split the beam to hit multiple targets… somehow. This beam can also be seen from planets it somehow goes past, and you can see the explosion which blows up planets from planets in other star systems in real time. > > Space travel was always a bit wonky in Star Wars. It took the a vague amount of time but always exactly as the plot required, but this seems to be a weird trademark of J. J. Abrams. [Starkiller Base is pretty similar to the Galaxy Gun from the EU](http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Galaxy_Gun), so it’s hardly as if Abrams were the inventor of this idea. ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-star-vs-starkiller-base-both-are-unrealistic-the-latter-especially-so-open-spoilers/741934/40 "2016-01-01T22:51:45Z")
I’m guessing that by Episode IX, they’ll be fighting a star with a complete, fully armed and armored Dyson Sphere built around it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-star-vs-starkiller-base-both-are-unrealistic-the-latter-especially-so-open-spoilers/741934.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-star-vs-starkiller-base-both-are-unrealistic-the-latter-especially-so-open-spoilers/741934.md?page=3)