# Debate about the terms used in the abortion discussion **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 24, 2010, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-about-the-terms-used-in-the-abortion-discussion/530220 "2010-02-24T02:46:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-about-the-terms-used-in-the-abortion-discussion/530220/41 "2010-02-24T19:48:36Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Some pro-choice people do consider the fetus a person. However, they don’t consider it right for any person to use another person’s body with permission. Which is the basis for my view that it doesn’t matter whether the fetus is a person or not for the general principles at stake. The only time I could see there being a point of concern is if the pregnant woman had entered into a valid contract to act as an incubator for the fetus (such as in a surrogate situation), and even then the personhood of the fetus isn’t relevant. It does lead to interesting considerations as to what happens **after** the abortion, of course. If the fetus is a person, and the woman is simply evicting the fetus from the womb, and (in the very small percentage of cases where this happens) it is post viability, what happens next. It could also impact the type of procedure permitted, I assume. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-about-the-terms-used-in-the-abortion-discussion/530220/42 "2010-02-24T19:53:00Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Which is the basis for my view that it doesn’t matter whether the fetus is a person or not for the general principles at stake. The only time I could see there being a point of concern is if the pregnant woman had entered into a valid contract to act as an incubator for the fetus (such as in a surrogate situation), and even then the personhood of the fetus isn’t relevant. In the first Baby M trial, the judge, who terminated biological mother Mary Beth Whitehead’s paternal rights and allowed Elizabeth Stern to adopt the baby, stated that the only clause in the surrogate contract that was illegal was that the natural father could force the surrogate mother to have an abortion if he so wished. Judge Harvey Sorkow stated that the right whether or not to have an abortion was solely the rights of the pregnant woman. Word up to anti-abortion people: Bombing clinics and killing doctors is not pro-life in my book. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-about-the-terms-used-in-the-abortion-discussion/530220/43 "2010-02-24T19:53:51Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Some pro-choice people do consider the fetus a person. However, they don’t consider it right for any person to use another person’s body with permission. > > If a man uses a woman’s reproductive system without her permission, it’s called rape. If a fetus does the same thing, isome people considered it “pro-life.” The first part is semantics and the second part is a bad analogy. The fetus has no choice about whether or not to “use another person’s body”. The rapist wasn’t conceived with his penis stuck inside a woman. ---
**Author:** ![Frank\_apisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/47e85d/32.png) [@Frank\_apisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank_apisa)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-about-the-terms-used-in-the-abortion-discussion/530220/44 "2010-02-24T19:54:37Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > And the former side doesn’t want to be considered pro-abortion, even with the “legal” qualifier. > > As has already been noted, the two sides simply start with 2 different assumptions-- personhood or non-personhood of the fetus. Those views are not reconcilable. Neither is “right” in objective sense, as attainment of “personhood” is a process, not an event. Where we draw the line is necessarily arbitrary, to some extent. > > If we take a strictly scientific view (my preference), we still run into difficulties in coming up with an objective point of determining “personhood”. Conception? Heartbeat? Brainwaves? Birth? Self-recognition? Any of those could be good candidates. We have pretty much decided to use “viability” as the point where we confer “personhood”, and I think this is fine. The question of “personhood” doesn’t come into play in my take on things. It is my opinion that so long as the pregnancy is taking place in a woman’s body…she, and only she, determines whether to continue the pregnancy or terminate it. If she is killing a person…that is unfortunate, but in my opinion, she has a right to decide to terminate a pregnancy without even giving a reason. It is her body. As for the people who consider the fetus a full human…with a soul…well, the soul apparently gets a free pass into Heaven. I am pro-choice for the woman who is pregnant. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-about-the-terms-used-in-the-abortion-discussion/530220/45 "2010-02-24T19:57:06Z")
I am pro choice. What object to is those who believe they have the right to make the choice for you. If you do not believe in abortion don’t have one. But do not presume you have the rigf=ght to make life decisions for others. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-about-the-terms-used-in-the-abortion-discussion/530220/46 "2010-02-24T20:05:50Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Some pro-choice people do consider the fetus a person. However, they don’t consider it right for any person to use another person’s body with permission. > > If a man uses a woman’s reproductive system without her permission, it’s called rape. If a fetus does the same thing, isome people considered it “pro-life.” Well, but are there shades and nuances here? I mean, suppose a woman and a foetus are having a few drinks together, maybe things get a little hot and heavy, and signals get misunderstood, and the foetus maybe wants things to go all the way to full term, and the woman isn’t quite ready yet… is that really, in your heart of hearts, the same as some sicko foetus lurking in the bushes for some woman to come by in the dead of night so he can forcibly overpower her and hold a knife to her throat while he implants himself in her uterus? Or is it all the same thing? And is it quite the same thing as fighting off a fully sentient adult knowing all along that he’s sure to die from your reasonable efforts to defend yourself? > [@gonzomax](#): > > I am pro choice. What object to is those who believe they have the right to make the choice for you. If you do not believe in abortion don’t have one. But do not presume you have the rigf=ght to make life decisions for others. Yes. And if you don’t believe in beating your wife then don’t beat her. But do not presume you have the rigf=ght to make life decisions for others. ---
**Author:** ![Hawkeyeop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/958977/32.png) [@Hawkeyeop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hawkeyeop)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-about-the-terms-used-in-the-abortion-discussion/530220/47 "2010-02-24T20:28:03Z")
> [@Frank\_apisa](#): > > The question of “personhood” doesn’t come into play in my take on things. It is my opinion that so long as the pregnancy is taking place in a woman’s body…she, and only she, determines whether to continue the pregnancy or terminate it. The question of choice doesn’t come into it for me. There is a (potential) life at stake and in my opinion that trumps all. > [@](#): > > My opinion the anti-abortion, pro-life issue is this: it is anti-choice. They want to remove the decision of what to do or not do about a pregnancy from the woman who is pregnant. They are saying that women in general are simply not smart/competent/ spiritual/whatever enough to make that decision about their own lives and their own bodies by themselves. And that is insulting beyond belief to every woman who ever lived. Grabbed from the poll thread. This is why I don’t like the term anti-choice, because it can imply this type of meeting. I have no qualms about woman’s abilities to make decisions. I believe it is important that they get control over their own bodies. I believe it is more important to protect a potential life. Women’s rights and fetal concerns aren’t opposite. If you care about one doesn’t mean you are against the other. You just have different priorities. While I’m generally pro-life in all things (against assisted suicide and the death penalty etc.) I also don’t think it is necessary in order to consider oneself pro-life in terms of abortion. After all pro-choice doesn’t mean that you believe that women should have choices in every scenario. ---
**Author:** ![LonghornDave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@LonghornDave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonghornDave)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-about-the-terms-used-in-the-abortion-discussion/530220/48 "2010-02-24T20:54:58Z")
As I stated in the other thread, the terms people should use are pro abortion rights and anti abortion rights. Pro choice is a vaguely positive term that doesn’t really mean anything. Anti-choice is just as ludicrous only it also serves to demonize the other side of the debate directly. Pro life doesn’t work because it assumes that everyone agrees that a fetus is life. It’s also way too vague. Pro abortion and anti abortion don’t work because anyone with a moral compass should think that abortions are negative events; therefore who would be for them and who wouldn’t be against them. The debate is whether women should have the right to have an abortion and how extensive that right should be. People should not use loaded terms and the terms used should be as specific to the debate as possible. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-about-the-terms-used-in-the-abortion-discussion/530220/49 "2010-02-24T20:55:28Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Fundamentally, the abortion issue comes down to whether your beliefs lead you to believe that a fetus is a life or not. I disagree. I think that’s irrelevant. For me, it’s a matter of pragmatism. Women **will** have abortions, be they legal or not, and I’d much rather they had them in the safety of a hospital or clinic, rather than in some back alley. Or worse, tried themselves with a coat-hanger. So the issue is choice, not life. ---
**Author:** ![LonghornDave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@LonghornDave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonghornDave)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-about-the-terms-used-in-the-abortion-discussion/530220/50 "2010-02-24T20:59:29Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > Since we can’t have a proper discussion in a poll thread for reasons unknown to me, here’s a thread for it. [Original poll thread.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=553358) > > The question was asked, My answer is yes indeed. I truly think the debate is over a woman’s right to choose, and other people wanting to take away her right to choose (because they don’t think she should have that right). The debate is not over a woman’s right to choose. It is over whether a woman has a right to have an abortion and how extensive that right is. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-about-the-terms-used-in-the-abortion-discussion/530220/51 "2010-02-24T21:02:46Z")
> [@LonghornDave](#): > > The debate is not over a woman’s right to choose. It is over whether a woman has a right to have an abortion and how extensive that right is. I don’t know exactly what you think the difference is. The debate is over her right to choose _abortion_. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-about-the-terms-used-in-the-abortion-discussion/530220/52 "2010-02-24T21:03:29Z")
> [@Frank\_apisa](#): > > The question of “personhood” doesn’t come into play in my take on things. It is my opinion that so long as the pregnancy is taking place in a woman’s body…she, and only she, determines whether to continue the pregnancy or terminate it. > > If she is killing a person…that is unfortunate, but in my opinion, she has a right to decide to terminate a pregnancy without even giving a reason. > > It is her body. > > As for the people who consider the fetus a full human…with a soul…well, the soul apparently gets a free pass into Heaven. > > I am pro-choice for the woman who is pregnant. “Person” or “Personhood” are legal terms of art. You’re just creating a new legal term of art which means the same thing, and which makes no sense since we already have a generally accepted term. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-about-the-terms-used-in-the-abortion-discussion/530220/53 "2010-02-24T21:03:46Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > In the first Baby M trial, the judge, who terminated biological mother Mary Beth Whitehead’s paternal rights and allowed Elizabeth Stern to adopt the baby, stated that the only clause in the surrogate contract that was illegal was that the natural father could force the surrogate mother to have an abortion if he so wished. Judge Harvey Sorkow stated that the right whether or not to have an abortion was solely the rights of the pregnant woman. True. What I was talking about was a hypothetical legal situation where a fetus is legally considered a human being , but abortion is legal on a property rights concept. You should have been able to read in all the unspoken assumptions I was making! 😃 In such a situation, given the emphasis on property rights, I can see a clause holding up which stated that the mother would, absent certain defined health situations, carry the pregnancy to term. It’s not the basis of my belief in abortion rights, and instead is me being so bored of having proof read a document 743 times that I am trying to remember One L Contract Law. ---
**Author:** ![Hawkeyeop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/958977/32.png) [@Hawkeyeop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hawkeyeop)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-about-the-terms-used-in-the-abortion-discussion/530220/54 "2010-02-24T21:10:07Z")
> [@LonghornDave](#): > > As I stated in the other thread, the terms people should use are pro abortion rights and anti abortion rights. As I said I don’t like the use of anti but the rest of your points are well made. How bout pro abortion rights vs pro fetal rights? ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-about-the-terms-used-in-the-abortion-discussion/530220/55 "2010-02-24T21:11:57Z")
Nope - perfectly possible to believe in fetal rights that are outwieghed by those of the mother, as is the current state of US law, I believe. ---
**Author:** ![Frank\_apisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/47e85d/32.png) [@Frank\_apisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank_apisa)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-about-the-terms-used-in-the-abortion-discussion/530220/56 "2010-02-24T21:14:06Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > “Person” or “Personhood” are legal terms of art. You’re just creating a new legal term of art which means the same thing, and which makes no sense since we already have a generally accepted term. Huh??? I do not understand what you are saying here at all. What is the “new legal term of art” (whatever the hell that is) that I am creating? I did not coin any terms or words here that I can see. ---
**Author:** ![LonghornDave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@LonghornDave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonghornDave)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-about-the-terms-used-in-the-abortion-discussion/530220/57 "2010-02-24T21:14:59Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > I used to think that “pro-life” was the term to be used for people opposed to abortions, but I don’t think so anymore (although I will probably still call them that if that is the name they choose for themselves). Pro-life indicates that you won’t hunt, you think the death penalty is always wrong, and that you won’t hurt someone who is breaking into your house - I think your average pro-lifer fails on all these accounts. Anti-choice sounds far more accurate to me - they are against people having a choice that they themselves don’t approve of. This is utterly ludicrous. You take the pro life term (which I agree is a stupid term) and decide to say it must apply to anything what-so-ever and not simply the abortion debate. Therefore, a person who claims to be pro life must be pro life on all issues: hunting, death penalty, etc. Why don’t you take this same approach and apply it to people who call themselves pro choice? A person calling themselves pro choice must be pro choice on every issue imaginable as well and not simply on the abortion debate. Do you not see how logically stupid your thought process is? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-about-the-terms-used-in-the-abortion-discussion/530220/58 "2010-02-24T21:20:27Z")
> [@Frank\_apisa](#): > > Huh??? > > I do not understand what you are saying here at all. What is the “new legal term of art” (whatever the hell that is) that I am creating? [Person](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Person). [Term of Art](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Term_of_art). > [@](#): > > I did not coin any terms or words here that I can see. You did everything but coin the term. Your post would simply create two types of “Persons”-- those who can be killed w/o due process of law, and those that can. Let’s call them Persons A and Persons B. ---
**Author:** ![LonghornDave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@LonghornDave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonghornDave)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-about-the-terms-used-in-the-abortion-discussion/530220/59 "2010-02-24T21:21:23Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > I don’t know exactly what you think the difference is. The debate is over her right to choose _abortion_. Well one term, Pro Choice, would be a vague term that could mean basically anything. The other term, Pro Abortion Rights, actually carries some real meaning along with it. I tend to think people should speak plainly and directly. ---
**Author:** ![Hawkeyeop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/958977/32.png) [@Hawkeyeop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hawkeyeop)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-about-the-terms-used-in-the-abortion-discussion/530220/60 "2010-02-24T21:28:43Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Nope - perfectly possible to believe in fetal rights that are outwieghed by those of the mother, as is the current state of US law, I believe. And it is perfectly possible to believe fetal rights outweigh choice of the mother which makes anti inaccurate. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-about-the-terms-used-in-the-abortion-discussion/530220.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-about-the-terms-used-in-the-abortion-discussion/530220.md?page=4)