Debate Bush's latest Immigration reform plan

Great Debates
41

Living along the Rio Grande, I probably have a somewhat different viewpoint than most around these here parts…

(First though, a small aside: )

While I agree with you that it is very annoying they are not doing anything illegal. English is not now, nor ever was before, the official language of the US. If you want to force people to speak English, talk to your national representatives and senators and see if they can push a bill making English the official language. (A word of caution: it’s been tried before and it’s failed. Miserably.) I will stop at this because this isn’t intended to be a flame. No pitting!

Second, Bush’s proposal is a way to deal with a problem that already exists. Here’s the way it works down in Texas. These people want to come to America to work. They wait till dark and in a relatively unpopulated area of the River and cross over. Assuming that they are successful and are not caught by the Border Patrol, they make their way to a town, on the border or elswhere, and set up shop…as day labourers or whatever they can get. Because they are illegal aliens, their employers will not have any documentation on them, as they’d get into serious trouble with Uncle Sam if caught. Compounded with this, the aliens are paid cash for their work, thus making it untaxable.

We know this is happening but it’s so difficult to nail these guys because the operations are so fluid. Often, these “jobs” last little more than a few days or weeks.

What’s the solution? One possible solution would be to create a task force that does nothing but hunt down illegals and their employers. Great idea, but it would cost so much in manpower and tax dollars that it becomes impractical, if not impossible almost immediately.

Solution#2: give these people an opportunity to become resident aliens with the possibility of becoming a full-fledged citizen. This way, they are more likely to take a “legit” job where they get a steady paycheck and thus can get taxed like all the rest of us. Furthermore, they’d be contributing to “the system” instead of just mooching off of it.

History lesson: Until Clinton came along, women from Mexico would come to a border town in Texas to give birth to their baby, thus making their kid an American citizen. Now, obviously, a newborn baby cannot go into the workforce, but the mother can’t support the baby on her own either. What does she do? She registers the baby for welfare (food stamps, etc.) In the days BC (before clinton), these babies would stay on welfare indefinitely. It was a HUGE scam, and the economies suffered from it. Clinton came in and said that this indefinite welfare program would no longer exist, and so it didn’t. The result: the number of Mexican women coming across to give birth was reduced dramatically, since they no longer had a permanent hand-out.

Now, apply that to Bush’s new policy. If we make it easier for people to become Resident Aliens and eventually citizens, first, it’ll make life a WHOLE lot easier for the law enforcement agencies along the border (kudos to the Border Patrol…those guys kick tuches day-in and day-out). Second, the new citizens will be more likely to become active participants in our communities.

Oh yeah, and before you start thinking that I’m just some poor immigrant myself, think again. I am 4th generation American on both sides of my family, and I’m in the minority in my hometown in terms of the fact that I spoke English as my first language AND that none of my family is from Mexico.

42

Not if you take Bush at his word per the new policy. The guest-workers are supposed to eventually repatriate to their home countries and take their SS payments with them. IIRC, the SS payments would be held in escrow as part of an inducement to make sure they do, in fact, return to their home countries at some point in the future.

43

I respecfully suggest, yawndave, that you’re not aware of a lot of history to the contrary. A trip back to certain sections of 1920 New York might really open your eyes.

Since the first immigrants, most have stayed in communities of their own for the first generation – learning a new language as an adult is a tough task for most people. Invariably, these immigrants’ children assimilate very quickly, learning English and adopting the culture. The benefits to doing so induce all but the slowest or most stubborn. (I can dig up some cites on all this if anyone’s interested – I remember Bill Bryson’s book “Made in America” contained a lot of data).

Some admitted differences in 2004: technology, and to a lesser extent geography, allow many of the recent immigrants (many of whom came here from nearer than Europe) to maintain contact with their native cultures. I would wager that had it been an option to call home every night, my Greek immigrant father would have stayed more in touch with his family when he came here in 1910.

44

Mr. Shakespeare brings up a good point. As it is, I’m looking at one immigration pattern that took place in 1907-1914. Russian Jews were immigrating to the US via Galveston, TX. nearly 100% of these people would get off the ship and not know a word of English. Yet, to work in the small towns of the West and Midwest, they ahd to develop their English-speaking skills.

Given a few months’ time, and a few night classes each week, these immigrants who started out speaking nothing but Hebrew and Yiddish, turned into some of the more productive members of the society.

Today, you don’t see anything like that happening,b ut you didn’t see that happening in the larger immigration picture in the late 1800s and early 1900s either. But their sons and daughters…and grandchildren too, were the ones that really did English justice. As a fictionalized account of this (based upon historical fact though), look up the book OUT OF THIS FURNACE (I forget the author). It shows 3 generations of people, from the man who set foot in Philly from his home in Eastern Europe (a Slav) to his grandson. Not the best book as far as fiction goes, but it does prove a very valid point about immigrants and their integration into American society.

The first generation Americans will stay in the ghettos. But starting with the second, and really with the third generations, they branch out and move into new frontiers for themselves and their families.

45

That’s a deceptive number. It doesn’t take into account that the Bush economy has not created any jobs. And now he seems determined to give the jobs that remain away to foreign nationals at minimum wage.

This bill has no chance of passing. I hope.

46

It’s not a deceptive number. Read this to learn why.

47

I don’t see how this is deceptive. I’m comparing today’s number to the same number throughout history. Over the past 30 years, the average unemployment is about 6.3% here 5.9% may SEEM high compared with the historical lows we were at pre 9/11, but that doesn’t make 5.9 actually a high number.

I don’t know what ‘job creation’ has to do with whether or not our unemployment rate is high. If you want to argue that the current value can’t be compared to the historical average, feel free, I’ll listen.

48

I don’t know a whole lot about this issue, but how it was covered on our news here explained that it was an attempt to garner support from Hispanic voters and whilst it may not have the support from far-right conservatives it would not lose any actual votes in the main elections as they (the Buchanans of this world) would never consider a vote for a Democratic candidate in any case. (Just my $0.02 from this side of the pond)

49

Indeed the news from the Republic of Ireland was going (in a hopeful tone of voice) “perhaps Bush will do the same thing for illegal Irish immigrants in order to attract the Irish vote” (!).

50

I haven’t heard “Go back to Mexico” since junior high. :mad: America didn’t destroy our culture, it is our culture.

I only threw that in there because I wanted to point out that, even though I’m (kind of) Mexican, when I think of immigration issues I don’t picture my grandmother swimming across the Rio Grande. That side of my family is actually fairly anti-open borders.

I disagree that people of American nationality and Mexican ethnicity should go back to Mexico if they still acknowledge the cultural heritage of their ethnicity.

51

I’m not entering this particular debate on either side. I’d just like to note that historical unemployment rates are easier to understand in graphical form. Look here:

http://www.economagic.com/em-cgi/charter.exe/fedstl/unrate+1976+2004+0+0+1+290+545++0

Reagan was the unemployment king. Bush doesn’t really rate in the unemployment stakes.

52

“More and more”? It’s how immigration has been for a LONG time. The first generation comes over to a strange land. They don’t speak the language or understand the culture, and both can be hard to learn. So they seek the company of other immigrants. Perfectly reasonable. The European immigrants did it to. In a generation or two, they’ll be eating Wonder Bread and listening to Britney Spears.

With such a tolerant and welcoming attitude I have no idea why a new immigrant wouldn’t love you.

53

I should have worded that more clearly. I’m not entering the immigration debate. I am agreeing with Cheesesteak’s unemployment numbers.

54

The problem isn’t the unemployment rate. It’s the lack of job growth and that’s where Bush fails.

http://slate.msn.com/id/2082321

That’s why I feel it is deceptive to look at the unemployment number and imploy Americans are being irrational.

55

I’m not arguing that the economy is booming and job growth is skyrocketing. I’m saying that unemployment is not “high” at this point in time. Unemployment was “low” at the end of Clinton’s term, the dot-com bubble hadn’t burst yet, and people were making money hand over fist. The collapse of the dot-com’s and 9/11 (and Bush’s policy, if you want to blame him) contributed to us losing a bunch of jobs since then. We’ve gone from “low” to “average” unemployment. “High” would be 7-8+%, you know, higher than our 30 year average, not lower.

It’s a nitpicky point I’m making, but I’m tired of the old Sky is Falling bullshit that taints discussion about this stuff. Maybe if you weren’t old enough to remember Carter or Reagan you’d think that today’s unemployment rate is outrageously high and our economy is falling apart. It’s just not so.

56

While Mexican immigration has a lot of similiarities with previous waves of immigration, there are differences as well. Previous immigrants were arriving in a nation thousands of miles away from their homes. The ethnic pockets they formed in cities were small. Neither of these applies to Mexican immigrants. I have to question the degree to which second generation Mexican-Americans are required by necessity to adopt “American” ways. The proximity of Mexican immigrants to their countries of origin and the presence they and their descendents have in the SW United States strikes me as unique.

57

They’re assimilating, by some measures faster then Filipinos, Puerto Ricans, Cubans, Chinese, Japanese, and blacks. Here’s a cite. Table 2 is interesting.

58

cheesesteak, you might find today’s AP summary interesting reading. Bolding added

59

Now, in yawndave’s defense, I will say this much. Since I am of the “wrong skin colour” in the Rio Grande Valley, I am very often subject to second-class service, especially in restaurants. The service people will speak in spanish, saying all sorts of insulting things to me because I am a “gringo”…little do they know, hablo espanol muy bien. :smiley:

At the same time, though…I wouldn’t say that this is the majority of the Mexican immigrant population (I have no numbers to prove it either way, just a gut feeling).

Oh yeah, and for the record, the Rio Grande Valley has had one ofthe highest unemployment rates of any region in the nation…peaking at almost 20% at one point (I can’t remember if it was at the end of Clinton or the beginning of Bush II, but it was somewhere in there).

Moving right along…
Studies have proven that you will rarely see full assimilation into American culture until the third generation. The first generation is just off the boat and can really do nothing except lay the foundation for their descendants to improve themselves. The second generation is better off than the original immigrants, but they still have difficulty understanding American culture. The third generation has a good financial foundation from their parents and grandparents and finally have the financial/social freedom to integrate themselves into the society as they see fit. Again, I’ll plug the book OUT OF THIS FURNACE, which talks about a czech steel mill worker family in Philly over the course of 3 generations. It’s probably one of the best books on the history of immigration from the standpoint of the immigrants themselves (also the model of one of my long-term research projects).

Oh, and you want to know what a good portion of the Mexican immigrants do for a living in America?

  1. They migrate around the country, picking crops.
  2. They clean houses (this is primarily a woman’s job…no sexism, just the way it is)
  3. Day labor, doing menial work in construction, etc.
  4. Janitorial work.

In other words, they do the bottom-of-the-barrel jobs that no one else will do…and I do mean NO ONE else would do some of these jobs.

60

Cite?

Is it that they won’t do these jobs? Or is it they won’t do them at the wages and conditions offered?

I know a few non-Mexican immigrant construction workers, house cleaners and janitors and I doubt they would agree with you that no one else will besides Mexican immigrants will do those jobs. :wink: