# Debate - Kerry and Mary Cheney **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 14, 2004, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-kerry-and-mary-cheney/269277 "2004-10-14T22:36:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-kerry-and-mary-cheney/269277/21 "2004-10-15T00:01:24Z")
> [@commasense](#): > > I’m sorry, I don’t consider it “guilty” or “ham-handed” to mention something that you don’t consider shameful, even if you know other people consider it so. It’s their problem, and for them to make an issue out of it, implying it was impolite not to support and confirm their prejudices, is political posturing. I’ll feel free to bring up your hemorroids in conversation with others. \*\*I \*\* don’t consider it shameful, after all. ---
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-kerry-and-mary-cheney/269277/22 "2004-10-15T00:04:07Z")
> [@Malodorous](#): > > I don’t think my personal life is shameful, but I wouldn’t necessarily want it discussed as a rhetorical point in front of 60 million people just because of my fathers job. There’re some more pertinent fact to take into consideration. One is that Mary Cheney is firmly out and has publicly campaigned for gay and lesbian rights issues. She’s also one of the most senior figures (Director of something or other) in her father’s campaign. Therefore, she holds a greater and more public position than merely that of Dick Cheney’s daughter. I believe that the offence at Kerry’s comment is largely in show, in a cynical attempt to paint Kerry as a bigot. ---
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-kerry-and-mary-cheney/269277/23 "2004-10-15T00:07:24Z")
> [@furt](#): > > I’ll feel free to bring up your hemorroids in conversation with others. \*\*I \*\* don’t consider it shameful, after all. Being gay is a natural thing and politely referring to someone’s sexuality (if they’re out) is therefore acceptable. Don’t you dare compare homosexuality to a disease. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-kerry-and-mary-cheney/269277/24 "2004-10-15T00:08:23Z")
> [@Atticus Finch](#): > > I believe that the offence at Kerry’s comment is largely in show, in a cynical attempt to paint Kerry as a bigot. Not a bigot-- just ill mannered. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-kerry-and-mary-cheney/269277/25 "2004-10-15T00:13:37Z")
> [@MMI](#): > > What if she is actively working for BC04? What if previously she had handled Gay/Lesbian outreach for Coors? Would these have made her sufficiently the Gay/Lesbian friendly face for BC04? In addition to those roles, you left off that she left Coors to be the head of the Republican Unity Coalition before resigning that to work on the campaign. She’s put herself into the limelight. ---
**Author:** ![capacitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e47774/32.png) [@capacitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capacitor)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-kerry-and-mary-cheney/269277/26 "2004-10-15T00:15:40Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > I disagree. The VP can’t possibly agree with the Prez on everything, so unless you are saying that the VP should resign as soon as he disagrees with the Prez on something, then calling him a hypocrite is meaningless. It’s an imppossible test that no one could pass. > > It’s the VP’s job to support the Prez. Sure he can try to influence the Prez, but at the end of the day he has to toe the line set by his boss. I was explaining the reasons why Cheney might have been a bit irked that Kerry brought up her daughter again. Even as one who will vote for Kerry, I believe that Cheney handled this particular subject about his daughter about as well as it can be handled, even as his boss definitely does not. If Cheney was the one one who wrote Keyes’s screed on homosexuals being sinners who ought to be condemned, then it might be understandable to continuously call him out. But he didn’t, and in fact repeatedly say just about the opposite. So the main Dem. campaign should just say their peace and move on, and leave for now the advocacy to the advocates. I wouldn’t want to have my child’s legacy to be reduced to a chant or a ‘taking point’, either by my side or the other. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-kerry-and-mary-cheney/269277/27 "2004-10-15T00:19:45Z")
> [@furt](#): > > So you had no problem with that, then? Or did you think (as any fair-minded person did) that it was cheap and ugly? Tu quoque. Oh give me a break! Chelsea was called a dog on national TV by Rush Limbaugh, and insulted ad nauseum. All Kerry did was say that Mary is the VP’s daughter and a lesbian. Which is true. Now, if he had said, “What about Mary Cheney-that carpet munching dyke?” THEN that would be comparable to what was said about Chelsea. My point is, if the right\* is going to have a conniption simply because Kerry mentioned that she was gay, and say he shouldn’t even have mentioned her, then these people shouldn’t EVER have excused or defended Rush for what HE did. And there ARE some people who are freaking out about Kerry, who have defended Limbaugh in the past. But since there’s nothing insulting about saying that Mary’s gay, what about this. What if Kerry were talking about oh, say help for working single mothers, and instead of being a lesbian, Mary was a WSM, and Kerry pointed that out. No one would bat an eye! But because she’s GAY-oh, yeah. Sure, they support her. As long as she keeps her mouth shut and doesn’t make waves. Screw that. \*And by right, once again, I don’t mean everyone here who consider themselves right of center, but the fanatical types. ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-kerry-and-mary-cheney/269277/28 "2004-10-15T00:23:31Z")
> [@furt](#): > > So you had no problem with that, then? Or did you think (as any fair-minded person did) that it was cheap and ugly? Tu quoque. This only follows if you consider stating the fact that someone is gay is equal to calling someone “The White House dog” (the incident I’m assuming is being referred to earlier). ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-kerry-and-mary-cheney/269277/29 "2004-10-15T00:25:53Z")
> [@capacitor](#): > > I wouldn’t want to have my child’s legacy to be reduced to a chant or a ‘taking point’, either by my side or the other. I think you nailed it. I am not seriously outraged by what Kerry did, but I also think that you leave family out of it. Mary Cheney may have put herself in the limelight, but the _main_ reason Kerry mentioned her (rather than some other “out” activist celebrity) is because she is the _daughter_ of one of his political opponents. He could have just as easily made his point without bringing in Cheney’s daughter, but he chose not to. And I think some people are reacting unfavorably because of it. Some of it is overreacting, but some of it, I think, is genuine. Just leave family out of it. I think that many people on both sides of the aisle believe that. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-kerry-and-mary-cheney/269277/30 "2004-10-15T00:32:17Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Oh give me a break! Chelsea was called a dog on national TV by Rush Limbaugh, and insulted ad nauseum. Which is relevant how? Leaving aside that Rush Limbaugh was not an officeholder, the id no doubt that his comment was asinine and cruel. There is also no doubt that many right wingers are asinine and cruel. Neither of which, however, bears on Kerry’s comment, unless you’re claiming that Democrats now have the right to be asinine and cruel. Your argument boils down to “since there are people freaking out about Kerry who have defended Limbaugh, therefore it’s okay for me to freak out about Limbaugh and defend Kerry.” Tu quoque. ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-kerry-and-mary-cheney/269277/31 "2004-10-15T00:33:46Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Neither of which, however, bears on Kerry’s comment, unless you’re claiming that Democrats now have the right to be asinine and cruel. Please explain why you think what Kerry said was asinine and cruel. I will grant ham-handed. ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-kerry-and-mary-cheney/269277/32 "2004-10-15T00:47:35Z")
> [@furt](#): > > > [@commasense](#): > > > > I’m sorry, I don’t consider it “guilty” or “ham-handed” to mention something that you don’t consider shameful, even if you know other people consider it so. It’s their problem, and for them to make an issue out of it, implying it was impolite not to support and confirm their prejudices, is political posturing. > > I’ll feel free to bring up your hemorrhoids in conversation with others. \*\*I \*\* don’t consider it shameful, after all. If I had previously admitted publicly that I have hemorrhoids, and someone asked you a question about hemorrhoids, and you referred to me, I’d have no problem with that. OTOH, if you told others when you knew I was keeping it confidential, _that_ would be wrong. (BTW, I don’t have hemorrhoids. Not that there’s anything wrong with that.) ---
**Author:** ![Rillian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bcef8e/32.png) [@Rillian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rillian)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-kerry-and-mary-cheney/269277/33 "2004-10-15T00:47:42Z")
> [@yosemite](#): > > Just leave family out of it. I think that many people on both sides of the aisle believe that. I don’t understand this position. They were debating a question on whether homosexuality is a choice. Kerry’s opponent’s running mate has a daughter who is: 1. Director of Vice Presidential Operations for Bush-Cheney 2004 2. Worked for Republican Unity Coalition - an organization dedicated to making homosexuality a “non-issue” for the Republican Party 3. Headed gay/lesbian outreach for Coors Brewing 4. Is publicly gay (she and her partner went up on stage after the debate) What better way to point out the hypocrisy in the Republican position on homosexuality (we’ll treat you with “sensitivity” but we have to amend the US Consitution to make sure you can never enjoy the rights/benefits afforded heterosexual couples even if your state laws would allow you to do so) then to use Mary as an example of someone in the President’s own circle who did not choose to be homosexual? ---
**Author:** ![Rillian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bcef8e/32.png) [@Rillian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rillian)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-kerry-and-mary-cheney/269277/34 "2004-10-15T00:51:28Z")
> [@commasense](#): > > If I had previously admitted publicly that I have hemorrhoids, and someone asked you a question about hemorrhoids, and you referred to me, I’d have no problem with that. Please stop equating homosexuality to a medical condition. An appropriate analogy comes from [Andrew Sullivan](http://www.andrewsullivan.com/) > [@](#): > > Let’s say the president was proposing the real analogy: a constitutional amendment to ban inter-racial marriage. Now let’s say the veep’s daughter was married to a black man. Would it be relevant then? Of course it would. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-kerry-and-mary-cheney/269277/35 "2004-10-15T00:53:41Z")
> [@Rillian](#): > > I don’t understand this position. They were debating a question on whether homosexuality is a choice. Kerry’s opponent’s running mate has a daughter who is: > > 1. Director of Vice Presidential Operations for Bush-Cheney 2004 > 2. Worked for Republican Unity Coalition - an organization dedicated to making homosexuality a “non-issue” for the Republican Party > 3. Headed gay/lesbian outreach for Coors Brewing > 4. Is publicly gay (she and her partner went up on stage after the debate) Because she’s _family_. You can’t get around it. She’s _family_. A lot of people believe that and no matter how many lists you make, it still boils down to: she’s _family_. I’m not outraged by what Kerry did, nor do I think he’s a bad man or anything, based on just this. But he crossed an invisible line that a lot of people have in the back of their minds. ---
**Author:** ![Rillian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bcef8e/32.png) [@Rillian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rillian)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-kerry-and-mary-cheney/269277/36 "2004-10-15T01:01:52Z")
> [@yosemite](#): > > Because she’s _family_. You can’t get around it. She’s _family_. A lot of people believe that and no matter how many lists you make, it still boils down to: she’s _family_. > > I’m not outraged by what Kerry did, nor do I think he’s a bad man or anything, based on just this. But he crossed an invisible line that a lot of people have in the back of their minds. So did Cheney cross that line when he said: > [@](#): > > "Lynne and I have a gay daughter, so it’s an issue that our family is very familiar with. … With respect to the question of relationships, my general view is that freedom means freedom for everyone. People ought to be able to free – ought to be free to enter into any kind of relationship they want to. He used his \*family life \* to respond to a question at campaign town hall and used his \*daughter \* to demonstrate how he has come to feel differently from the President but still has to support the President because that’s his role as VP. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-kerry-and-mary-cheney/269277/37 "2004-10-15T01:02:35Z")
> [@yosemite](#): > > Because she’s _family_. You can’t get around it. She’s _family_. A lot of people believe that and no matter how many lists you make, it still boils down to: she’s _family_. > > I’m not outraged by what Kerry did, nor do I think he’s a bad man or anything, based on just this. But he crossed an invisible line that a lot of people have in the back of their minds. She’s working for the campaign, so she’s not just family. She’s an adult and is openly supporting the Bush campaign. Perhaps it was a cheap shot, but in this campaign, it was pretty damn mild. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-kerry-and-mary-cheney/269277/38 "2004-10-15T01:07:39Z")
It was a low thing to do, I think, I made a disparaging remark about it in the debate thread when it happened. In there I stated that if she wanted to be pulled into the political arena, she has been perfectly capable of doing so. _To my knowledge_ she has not. Kerry should have respected those wishes. I don’t really think anything less of him for it, it was a potentially good move politically, but from this Thursday Evening Debater’s perspective (well it isn’t football and it isn’t Monday!), I wouldn’t have done it. Easy to say, I know. Hell, I’ve brought it up myself talking to others… maybe that makes me a hypocrite. I don’t know. I guess if we’re all talking about it, then what harm could Kerry have done? Again, I don’t know. But the comment didn’t resonate with me, that’s for sure. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-kerry-and-mary-cheney/269277/39 "2004-10-15T01:08:58Z")
> [@Rillian](#): > > He used his \*family life \* to respond to a question at campaign town hall and used his \*daughter \* to demonstrate how he has come to feel differently from the President but still has to support the President because that’s his role as VP. I call my mom a bitch, that’s ok, you call my mom a bitch, you’d better apologize. You know what I mean? ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-kerry-and-mary-cheney/269277/40 "2004-10-15T01:13:36Z")
More from Andrew Sullivan: > [@](#): > > Here’s an email that makes a point many others have. I cite it because it’s representative: > > > [@](#): > > > > You won’t read this or reply, but that’s fine. Your support of Kerry’s bringing up Mary Cheney in the debate just lost my respect completely. The best analogy I can think of would have been Carter mentioning Betty Ford’s addiction or someone mentioning Martha Mitchell’s instability and alcoholism in a presidential debate. Just beyond the pale. The young woman, and the family, are entitled to their privacy on private matters. > > Notice two things. First, the equation of gayness with some sort of embarrassing problem or, worse, some kind of affliction. For people who believe this, of course Kerry was out of line. That’s why Rove’s base is so outraged. But if you don’t believe this, it’s no different than, say, if a candidate were to mention another candidate’s son in the Marines. Or if, in a debate on immigration, a pro-immigrant candidate mentioned Kerry’s immigrant wife. You have to regard homosexuality as immoral or wrong or shameful to even get to the beginning of the case against Kerry. That’s why it’s a Rorschach test. Secondly, Mary Cheney isn’t private. She ran gay outreach for Coors, for pete’s sake. She appears in public with her partner. Her family acknowledges this. She’s running her dad’s campaign! Whatever else this has to do with - and essentially, it has to do whether you approve of homosexuality or not - privacy is irrelevant. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-kerry-and-mary-cheney/269277.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-kerry-and-mary-cheney/269277.md?page=3)