# Debate: Proselytising is misguided and ineffective. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 10, 2003, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-proselytising-is-misguided-and-ineffective/200766 "2003-09-10T15:13:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2003, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-proselytising-is-misguided-and-ineffective/200766/21 "2003-09-11T00:30:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JuanitaTech \* > \*\*Any god that would allow children and babies to suffer is either not omnipotent or very, very unkind. \*\* Or that god may have [reasons to allow that suffering](http://www.leaderu.com/offices/billcraig/docs/craig-nielsen7.html) – reasons that [transcend the temporal existence and immediate circumstances of an individual](http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/evil.html). ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2003, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-proselytising-is-misguided-and-ineffective/200766/22 "2003-09-11T00:38:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sunspace \* > \*\*It occurred to me that trying to logically convince people to change their religion is the wrong way to go about this, because it doesn’t work. \*\* There is no logical argument for religion. There are emotional, experiential, and perhaps intuitive arguments for religion, but not logical. Religion isn’t illogical either - it’s alogical. ---
**Author:** ![verbenabeast](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/c4cdca/32.png) [@verbenabeast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/verbenabeast)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2003, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-proselytising-is-misguided-and-ineffective/200766/23 "2003-09-11T00:52:35Z")
> [@](#): > > _originally posted by Lissa_ > Look at it this way: I’ll buy a new car when I’m ready to trade in my old one. When I feel it’s time, I’ll go look at the different lots, determine what available offers suit me best, and then make my decision. However, I don’t think I’d buy if salesmen dropped by my house, called me on the phone, or stopped me on the street and droned on at length about how a Chevy will change my life. Ahhh, but seeing a commercial for chevy _will_ influence your decision… else there wouldn’t be any chevy commercials… so proselytizng=commercials ---
**Author:** ![RoundGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/90ced4/32.png) [@RoundGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RoundGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2003, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-proselytising-is-misguided-and-ineffective/200766/24 "2003-09-11T03:41:04Z")
**Svt4Him** > [@](#): > > Simply by studying the prophecies of Matthew 24, Luke 21, and 2 Timothy 3. A few minutes of openhearted inspection will convince any honest skeptic that this is no ordinary book. I’m honest, I’m a skeptic, and I say it’s an ordinary book – no different than any other ancient text (consider the Qur’an) . Convince me. What are these passages supposed to tell me? ---
**Author:** ![RoundGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/90ced4/32.png) [@RoundGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RoundGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2003, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-proselytising-is-misguided-and-ineffective/200766/25 "2003-09-11T03:46:20Z")
**Juan2003** > [@](#): > > Proselytization is necessary to save souls from Hell. What Hell? ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2003, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-proselytising-is-misguided-and-ineffective/200766/26 "2003-09-11T03:47:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by verbenabeast \* > \*\*Ahhh, but seeing a commercial for chevy _will_ influence your decision… else there wouldn’t be any chevy commercials… so proselytizng=commercials \*\* \*But only if I’m in the market in the first place. \*If I intend to keep the car I have for the rest of my days, no one can change my mind by extolling the virtues of the new Blazer. Only when a person is ready and willing to admit religion into their lives will conversion occur. No amount of “witnessing” will lead a person to that point-- it may in fact drive him further from it. ---
**Author:** ![badchad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b77776/32.png) [@badchad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/badchad)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2003, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-proselytising-is-misguided-and-ineffective/200766/27 "2003-09-11T05:17:28Z")
Gobear: > [@](#): > > I don’t understand why fundamentalist Christianity emphasizes fear and punishmet when Jesus in the Gospels constantly preached love and forgiveness… They probably do it because Jesus didn’t constantly preach love and forgiveness but quite frequently preached fear and punishment. A few quotes if you will: Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Luke 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which AFTER he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him. Matthew 18:8, 9 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or feet to be cast into everlasting fire. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire. Matthew 25:46, And these shall go away into EVERLASTING punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. Matthew 13:41-42, The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. John 3:36He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. I think this effectively demonstrates that fundamentalist Christianity isn’t that far off of the teachings of Jesus with their doom and gloom and that this talk of love and forgiveness is just that, talk. Do you really disagree with this Gobear? > [@](#): > > Jesus 's harshest condemenation was not directed at the weak or fallen, but at the self-righteous who elevated themselves above their fellow humans. According to Jesus you burn in hell too get it? If not for being homosexual, then surely for being an unbeliever. If you ask me that is pretty harsh condemnation from such a so called loving and forgiving fellow. > [@](#): > > Well, just off the top ogf my head, what about the probem of evil, e.g., if God is all powerful and all-good, why does he allow innocent children to get cancer? If God is so loving, why is he so ready to send His creatures into eternal suffering? Yeah, now your getting it.🙂 Just don’t forget that Jesus endorsed that eternal suffering and purportedly will send forth his own angels to cast you (and me) into it. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2003, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-proselytising-is-misguided-and-ineffective/200766/28 "2003-09-11T05:33:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sunspace \* > My real question here is about the nature of religious conversion, not the nature of the religions themselves. Actually, your real question appears to be about the nature of a particular type of religious conversion. As I said above, not all faiths are concerned with the mystical stuff. > [@](#): > > I maintain that _the process of religious conversion itself_ is non-logical, whatever the nature of the religion involved, and that, therefore, trying to convert someone through logic is counterproductive. Unless, of course, the nature of the religion is logical. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2003, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-proselytising-is-misguided-and-ineffective/200766/29 "2003-09-11T06:06:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lissa \* > \*\*_But only if I’m in the market in the first place. If I intend to keep the car I have for the rest of my days, no one can change my mind by extolling the virtues of the new Blazer._ And sometimes people find themselves “in the market” because someone convinced them that it would be smart to get a new car. It seems to me that you’re creating a false dichotomy here. ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2003, 10:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-proselytising-is-misguided-and-ineffective/200766/30 "2003-09-11T10:07:38Z")
**Svt4Him** , a quick question. If you “do not believe sinners are going to be breaking down the doors of the church” what do you call the hundred or so people who pack my church at two services every Sunday, not to mention the folks who arrive early for Bible Study, choir practice, etc.? This sort of “Us Christians; you sinners.” dichotomy is one of the things some people have told me drove them away from Christianity and made it a very unappealing religion to belong to. You know, much as I don’t like being proselytized to, I can’t say it’s completely ineffective. You see, I know this is a self-selected group. We’re pretty much all curious, open-minded, and, maybe moreso here in GD than anywhere else, unwilling to accept something as true just because somebody else says it is, especially when it comes to matters of religion. On the other hand, there are people out there who are looking for someone to tell them what to do, explain things to them, and tell them what Truth is. I think proselytizing is a tactic which will make converts of one subset of humanity, although it will drive another subset away. I am angered and annoyed by people who claim one must be a Christian to get into heaven and then, it seems, do all they can to drive some people they’re in contact with away from Christ, even after they’ve been told that’s what their actions are doing. While those actions may bear good fruit in a different environment, let me put it this way. I’ve had marvelous discussions about religion while hanging out naked in a hot tub. In that context, nudity was appropriate and may have helped my arguments. It certainly didn’t hurt. Talking about religion in the nude at church would not be appropriate and, much as they love me and put up with me, _that_ might be enough to get me in trouble (Although it was awfully hot under those choir robes last Sunday!😉 Respectfully, CJ ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2003, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-proselytising-is-misguided-and-ineffective/200766/31 "2003-09-11T10:43:08Z")
[quote] * * * ## Jesus 's harshest condemenation was not directed at the weak or fallen, but at the self-righteous who elevated themselves above their fellow humans. According to Jesus you burn in hell too get it? If not for being homosexual, then surely for being an unbeliever. If you ask me that is pretty harsh condemnation from such a so called loving and forgiving fellow. [quote] If you bother to read the bits that you snipped the verses from, you’ll see that Jesus overwhelmingly condemns action, not belief. In Matthew 25 (where you took this verse “Matthew 25:46, And these shall go away into EVERLASTING punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” out of context), you will read that in the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats, Jesus condemns those who preach in His name but do not feed and clothe their brethren. In the Sermon on the Mount, he does not even address beleif, but insterad enumerates mods of righteous deeds. Now I’m no fan of organized religion either, but biased, selective reading of Bible verses taken out of context and a predispostion to call all religious people hypocrites, as you do regularly, are just as bigoted as any piece of fundie tripe. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2003, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-proselytising-is-misguided-and-ineffective/200766/32 "2003-09-11T13:22:38Z")
gobear: I think you’ll like this. Jesus even referred to non-Jews once as dogs. As you said, taking that out of context is wrong. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2003, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-proselytising-is-misguided-and-ineffective/200766/33 "2003-09-11T14:35:42Z")
gobear’s got it. Mercy triumphs over judgment it says in the bible. When you do this (help or ignore) the least of these people, you are doing it to Me-Jesus said. ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2003, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-proselytising-is-misguided-and-ineffective/200766/34 "2003-09-11T22:15:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JThunder \* > \*\*And sometimes people find themselves “in the market” because someone convinced them that it would be smart to get a new car. It seems to me that you’re creating a false dichotomy here. \*\* Perhaps if my sister talked to me about a new car, or my friends, I might start thinking about a new car, but not a complete stranger who knows nothing about my driving habits. If the stranger came up to me and started talking about how their life had been changed by their new car and how I’d be sorry if I kept my car, I would get defensive, possibly hostile, depending on the approach. However, if someone close to me said that my car wasn’t right, and started explaining all of the reasons why I should get another, I would be more willing to listen and consider their opinions. Maybe I might not buy a new car right away, but there’s a chance I’d start thinking about it. If I wouldn’t take a stranger’s advice about buying a new car, what makes you think I’d take advice from them on something as important as my immortal soul? To paraphrase Sun Tzu, if you wait by the river long enough, the converts will float down to you. Those that want religion to be part of their lives will eventually seek it out. Those that don’t aren’t likely to be convinced by a quick confrontation on a street corner. Proselytizers seem to think that religion is a concept that has never occured to the un-believer-- as if a mere mention of it would be enough to stir an epiphany. That’s simply not true. I’ve never met a person who has never given religion any thought. Everyone thinks about it, and some decide that they want it to be a part of their lives. Some decide that they don’t. Those that decide against it are highly unlikely to be influenced one whit by a pamphlet or an uninvited visit to their homes. They will only come to religion when they feel a need for it. ---
**Author:** ![Svt4Him](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7feea3/32.png) [@Svt4Him](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svt4Him)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2003, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-proselytising-is-misguided-and-ineffective/200766/35 "2003-09-11T22:20:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Siege \* > **Svt4Him** , a quick question. If you “do not believe sinners are going to be breaking down the doors of the church” what do you call the hundred or so people who pack my church at two services every Sunday, not to mention the folks who arrive early for Bible Study, choir practice, etc.? This sort of “Us Christians; you sinners.” dichotomy is one of the things some people have told me drove them away from Christianity and made it a very unappealing religion to belong to. I would have to ask what brought them there the first time. ---
**Author:** ![Svt4Him](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7feea3/32.png) [@Svt4Him](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svt4Him)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2003, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-proselytising-is-misguided-and-ineffective/200766/36 "2003-09-11T22:32:48Z")
Oh, and to address the attitude (no, not yours, the us Christians…) I think you will always have religious people who think they’re better than anyone. Jesus constantly was attacked by such people. That is a bad attitude, and a wrong one, and there is a story in the Bible about it. But the issue was whether proselytising is misguided and ineffective and if having a good church was proselytising enough. But by inviting someone to your service is proselytising, if I understand the OP, so your large church service would be proof that it is effective. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2003, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-proselytising-is-misguided-and-ineffective/200766/37 "2003-09-11T23:03:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sunspace \* > **_It’s misguided._ Proselytisers are trying to logically persuade someone to join. But religion, almost by definition, is not logical. If the potential convert is sufficently logical to be swayed by argument, will he or she not be likely to see logical flaws in the religion’s beliefs?** This isn’t the whole puicture; they often do more than just logically persuade people; they often appeal to emotion too. ---
**Author:** ![badchad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b77776/32.png) [@badchad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/badchad)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2003, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-proselytising-is-misguided-and-ineffective/200766/38 "2003-09-12T05:46:49Z")
Gobear: > [@](#): > > If you bother to read the bits that you snipped the verses from, you’ll see that Jesus overwhelmingly condemns action, not belief. If you bothered to read my post you would see that when Jesus is condemning action or whatever then that demonstrates the antithesis of being loving and forgiving. Forgiving and condemning are sort of antonyms, and an all loving all forgiving god who frequently goes around condemning people is pretty much an oxymoron. That you admit he condemns people is enough to disprove your earlier statement which went like this: > [@](#): > > I don’t understand why fundamentalist Christianity emphasizes fear and punishmet when Jesus in the Gospels **constantly** preached love and forgiveness… Perhaps if you amended your statement and changed the word “constantly” to “sometimes” it would be more accurate, otherwise I don’t think you have a leg to stand on. > [@](#): > > In Matthew 25 (where you took this verse “Matthew 25:46, And these shall go away into EVERLASTING punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” out of context), you will read that in the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats, Jesus condemns those who preach in His name but do not feed and clothe their brethren. A) I didn’t take it out of context. B) You are again admitting that Jesus likes to condemn folks, helping to make my point. Honestly I would expect a Christian to be twisting and turning with these sorts of crappy arguments but the only investment you have in this is a little pride in not wanting to admit you are wrong. Wouldn’t it be simpler and more honest to just stand corrected? > [@](#): > > In the Sermon on the Mount, he does not even address beleif, but insterad enumerates mods of righteous deeds. I don’t see how this has any bearing on our disagreement. I just made the statement that Jesus said belief is a prerequisite to salvation. Not that it said so in the Sermon on the Mount. Are you suggesting I don’t have a citation or are you suggesting that only the Sermon on the Mount counts as the teaching of Jesus? > [@](#): > > Now I’m no fan of organized religion either, but biased, selective reading of Bible verses taken out of context and a predispostion to call all religious people hypocrites, as you do regularly, are just as bigoted as any piece of fundie tripe. First off, everyone has a bias, and as such I have as much right to mine as you have to yours. In this instance I think I have objectively provided citations which show that my bias is not doing the talking and that I am factually correct about what Jesus taught via the bible. Not sure where your bias comes from but it sounds like a combination of a distaste of fundamentalist Christianity for their non-approval of your lifestyle (personally I don’t think it’s fair either) and the pride of not wanting to admit your error. Second I’m not that familiar with religions other than Christianity so I don’t think I have made any statements that could be construed that I believe that all religious folks are hypocrites. Third I have never met a Christian who wasn’t a hypocrite in that none of them make much of an effort to seriously follow all the teachings Jesus and/or the bible, rather they just “interpret” it as it best fits their selfish needs. As such if you care for the exercise I invite you to start a new thread in which we can examine the beliefs, vs. actions of any Christian you think isn’t a hypocrite. Last don’t you think your frequent disparaging remarks regarding “fundamentalist Christianity” to be, well, **bigoted**? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-proselytising-is-misguided-and-ineffective/200766.md?page=1)