# Debate the only sound, non-racist argument for immigration control I've ever read **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 8, 2013, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-the-only-sound-non-racist-argument-for-immigration-control-ive-ever-read/657822 "2013-05-08T17:34:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-the-only-sound-non-racist-argument-for-immigration-control-ive-ever-read/657822/41 "2013-05-09T05:28:03Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > This is a form of [protectionism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protectionism#Arguments_against_protectionism). And it works equally well as an argument against allowing the poor to procreate. Hell, it’s also an argument for states, counties and municipalities to restrict immigration from other regions of the US. > > People migrate for a reason. To be better off than they were. To get jobs where they’re better suited and more productive. If everyone could migrate freely, the world would be a happier and wealthier place overall. It’s frankly just a better allocation of resources. So then you think Toni Morrison was a racist bigot when she talked about how immigrants made it “on the backs of blacks”? Would you please explain your reasoning, because to me it sounds like entitled racist white bullshit and I’d like to be proven wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-the-only-sound-non-racist-argument-for-immigration-control-ive-ever-read/657822/42 "2013-05-09T06:30:29Z")
I’d say globalization has already let this horse out of the barn. Why would the “overclass” want all their low wage workers to come here to America? It’s easier to hire them to work for even less money back in their native countries. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-the-only-sound-non-racist-argument-for-immigration-control-ive-ever-read/657822/43 "2013-05-09T14:14:21Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > So then you think Toni Morrison was a racist bigot when she talked about how immigrants made it “on the backs of blacks”? So far I haven’t used the racist word. Some people who support criminalizing immigration are racists. Some are xenophobic. Some are protectionists. Some are misguided in other ways. Not everyone who disagrees with me is morally wrong. Some are merely incorrect. 🙂 > [@](#): > > Would you please explain your reasoning, because to me it sounds like entitled racist white bullshit and I’d like to be proven wrong. It’s racist to treat people equally regardless of where they are born? It’s racist to support free trade (and by extension free migration)? I think it’s both morally and economically right to allow people to move to where best suits them, regardless of where they were born or currently reside. You’re basically saying “people who weren’t born in the US don’t deserve to improve their circumstances”. But _I’m_ the one who’s racist? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-the-only-sound-non-racist-argument-for-immigration-control-ive-ever-read/657822/44 "2013-05-09T14:46:50Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Exactly. In Lind’s (and BG’s, and EC’s and Der’s) world, I wouldn’t be here. My family wouldn’t be here. We’d be back in Mexico scratching out a living in the dirt, instead of as productive citizens of this country, paying our taxes and doing our part to make this a better country. Absolutely. The United States is markedly worse off in their world, even if the lives of the immigrants count for nothing. > [@XT](#): > > Even if that weren’t the case, people deserve the chance to make a new life for themselves and their families. This freaking country was built on that idea, and to me it’s heavily ironic that lefties try and use the same arguments as righties to attempt to game the system to what they think is their best advantage, while essentially ignoring history and what made this country great. I fully agree, but the fact that second-generation immigrants _do_ outperform the children of natives tips the scale even further. A continuous influx of highly motivated, risk-taking, hard-working immigrants is a tonic against stultification and stagnation. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-the-only-sound-non-racist-argument-for-immigration-control-ive-ever-read/657822/45 "2013-05-09T16:42:33Z")
> [@Belowjob2.0](#): > > Lind’s not a racist. He is a citizenist. That is to say, he places a higher value on the interests of native born Americans, especially the white and black working classes, than he does on the interests of random foreigners who would like to settle here. > > As a practical matter, it’s simply impossible to be pro working class American and at the same time be pro high levels of immigration. Well the fact is we are now arranged by countries. We can’t make the rules in Mexico, which has long been economically dominated by its one percent, and to hell with the rest, because, you know, it’s macho for the strong to steal from the weak. I 'm all for a one world government of the sort conservatives fear and hate, but we don’t have one. So if we can’t make the rules for Mexico, we are under no obligation to accept citizens of Mexico within our borders just because Mexico’s leaders are a pile of crap. The state of Mexico’s citizens under its long-term leadership by a plutocracy, is one of the best arguments for reduciing wealth inequality in the US. By the way. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-the-only-sound-non-racist-argument-for-immigration-control-ive-ever-read/657822/46 "2013-05-09T16:51:33Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Absolutely. The United States is markedly worse off in their world, even if the lives of the immigrants count for nothing. Oh, horseshit. Wanting to be able to control levels of immigration is NOT the same thing as forbidding immigration. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-the-only-sound-non-racist-argument-for-immigration-control-ive-ever-read/657822/47 "2013-05-09T17:02:02Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Oh, horseshit. Wanting to be able to control levels of immigration is NOT the same thing as forbidding immigration. How did you get that from my post? I asserted that had immigration been restricted more than it actually was, the U.S. would be worse off. Controlling levels of immigration is exactly what the U.S. has done, under various schemes and quotas, over the years. Had those restrictions been tighter, the U.S. would be worse off. It doesn’t follow that had there been _no_ restrictions, the U.S. would be better off (though that _could_ be the case, and merits thought). ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-the-only-sound-non-racist-argument-for-immigration-control-ive-ever-read/657822/48 "2013-05-09T19:12:32Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Well the fact is we are now arranged by countries. We can’t make the rules in Mexico, which has long been economically dominated by its one percent, and to hell with the rest, because, you know, it’s macho for the strong to steal from the weak. > > I 'm all for a one world government of the sort conservatives fear and hate, but we don’t have one. So if we can’t make the rules for Mexico, we are under no obligation to accept citizens of Mexico within our borders just because Mexico’s leaders are a pile of crap. > > The state of Mexico’s citizens under its long-term leadership by a plutocracy, is one of the best arguments for reduciing wealth inequality in the US. By the way. Agreed. Also note that Mexico treats illegal immigrants to its shores quite harshly. There’s no talk at all in Mexico of a path to citizenship for illegal immigrants from Honduras or Haiti. Nor should there be. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-the-only-sound-non-racist-argument-for-immigration-control-ive-ever-read/657822/49 "2013-05-09T19:30:21Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > 1. :dubious: It is not racist to point out that unskilled or semiskilled immigrant labor, legal or illegal, is generally cheaper than native-born labor; and that, therefore, the availability of a very large supply of immigrant labor in the marketplace may have some depressive effect on the native-borns’ wages and benefits and job security. “May”, yes, but how are today’s immigrants any different from the Irish, the Italians, the Germans, or the Asians that have come in waves before and largely made this country better for it? The argument that immigrants are replacing “native” cheap labor seems as faulty as the argument that automation innovation reduces jobs. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-the-only-sound-non-racist-argument-for-immigration-control-ive-ever-read/657822/50 "2013-05-09T19:37:54Z")
> [@Belowjob2.0](#): > > Agreed. > > Also note that Mexico treats illegal immigrants to its shores quite harshly. There’s no talk at all in Mexico of a path to citizenship for illegal immigrants from Honduras or Haiti. Nor should there be. Treating immigrants harshly could be part of why Mexico is in the shape it’s in, given the correlation between immigration and prosperity. [Immigrants Boost the Wages, Income and Economic Output of Cities](http://m.theatlanticcities.com/politics/2013/04/how-immigration-helps-cities/5323/) > [@](#): > > The big picture is that immigration is a good thing for the American economy, and, judging from our analysis, a good thing for metros in particular, being associated with higher wages, higher incomes, and more high-tech industry, among other things. While we are unable to say whether immigration causes or reflects better economic performance, it is clear the two go together. These associations hold for foreign-born people overall as well for high-skill immigrants. [Immigration, Growth and Unemployment: Panel VAR Evidence from OECD Countries](http://ftp.iza.org/dp6966.pdf) > [@](#): > > The impulse response functions in Figure 1 show that GDP per capita > growth of host country responds positively and significantly to migration inflows, > while total unemployment rate of host country responds negatively and > significantly to migration inflows. Figure 1 also shows that migration inflows > respond positively and significantly to GDP per capita growth and negatively > and significantly to total unemployment rate of host country. [Immigration and Economic Growth](http://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/serials/files/cato-journal/2012/1/cj32n1-3.pdf) > [@](#): > > Opposition to immigration in the United States is strongest > regarding the admission of foreigners with low skill levels. There is > the perception that low-skilled immigrants tend to be in the country > illegally, to pay little in taxes while absorbing much in the way of government > services, and to make neighborhoods less safe. Less appreciated > are the contributions that low-skilled immigrants make in > improving the efficiency of the U.S. economy. > > … > > One contribution of low-skilled immigrants is to make it possible > for high-skilled workers to spend more time on the job and less time > doing non-work related chores. > > … > > Another consequence of low-skilled immigration is to increase the > mobility of the labor force. Low-skilled U.S.-born workers tend to be > immobile across regions. When, say, the demand for low-skilled > labor picks up in North Carolina, native-born workers in other > regions are slow to move in (Notowidigdo 2010). Why this is the case > is poorly understood. The consequence of the immobility of lowskilled > labor is to gum up the labor market, slowing the pace of > growth in booming regions and the pace of recovery in slumping > regions. Relative to low-skilled natives, low-skilled immigrants are > more mobile geographically (Card and Lewis 2007). > > … > > Moreover, economic theory > suggests that immigration generates a surplus by making capital and > land more productive, meaning that gains to U.S. employers are > likely to exceed any losses to U.S. workers. In practice, the immigration > surplus from low-skilled immigration in the United States > appears to be small (Borjas 1999, Hanson 2007). But the point > remains that one shouldn’t count wage losses to low-skilled immigrant > workers as a net loss from immigration, however painful it > might be for the individuals who are negatively affected. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-the-only-sound-non-racist-argument-for-immigration-control-ive-ever-read/657822/51 "2013-05-09T21:43:08Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > I don’t really see how that’s different than the right’s opposition to immigration. Am I missing something? Like I pointed out on the OP, it is different because it is not in any way based on the notion of immigrants threatening to overwhelm our language/culture/gene-pool, or being crime-prone or welfare-seeking, or carrying leprosy or whatever. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-the-only-sound-non-racist-argument-for-immigration-control-ive-ever-read/657822/52 "2013-05-09T22:00:04Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Like I pointed out on the OP, it is different because it is not in any way based on the notion of immigrants threatening to overwhelm our language/culture/gene-pool, or being crime-prone or welfare-seeking, or carrying leprosy or whatever. Isn’t their being “welfare-seeking” exactly what Lind is talking about? ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-the-only-sound-non-racist-argument-for-immigration-control-ive-ever-read/657822/53 "2013-05-09T22:26:57Z")
> [@XT](#): > > To 9/11 CTers it’s obvious that the WTC was brought down in a controlled demolition \ as well. 😛 SELF-EVIDENT\* adj.\* Evident to one’s self and no one else. – **Ambrose Bierce** , _The Devil’s Dictionary_ 😃 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-the-only-sound-non-racist-argument-for-immigration-control-ive-ever-read/657822/54 "2013-05-09T23:01:24Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Isn’t their being “welfare-seeking” exactly what Lind is talking about? No, it’s about their being wage-seeking. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-the-only-sound-non-racist-argument-for-immigration-control-ive-ever-read/657822/55 "2013-05-09T23:12:04Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > And what are their immigration policies? Generally, much much more strict than ours. It has long been a source of major aggravation to me that the Mexican government is very strict about limiting immigration to Mexico, while at the same time demanding that the United States accept more or less unlimited immigration from Mexico. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-the-only-sound-non-racist-argument-for-immigration-control-ive-ever-read/657822/56 "2013-05-09T23:52:12Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > Generally, much much more strict than ours. It has long been a source of major aggravation to me that the Mexican government is very strict about limiting immigration to Mexico, while at the same time demanding that the United States accept more or less unlimited immigration from Mexico. Why is Mexico so strict about immigration? Is any reason stated? ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-the-only-sound-non-racist-argument-for-immigration-control-ive-ever-read/657822/57 "2013-05-10T01:48:34Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Like I pointed out on the OP, it is different because it is not in any way based on the notion of immigrants threatening to overwhelm our language/culture/gene-pool, or being crime-prone or welfare-seeking, or carrying leprosy or whatever. Those are their _other_ reasons, but the main reason seems to be 'cuz they took err jerbs. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-the-only-sound-non-racist-argument-for-immigration-control-ive-ever-read/657822/58 "2013-05-10T02:17:06Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Pretty much that, actually, Yes, because every job can pay a middle class wage… ah ha ha ha ha, but of course you’re joking, right? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-the-only-sound-non-racist-argument-for-immigration-control-ive-ever-read/657822/59 "2013-05-10T02:36:23Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Yes, because every job can pay a middle class wage… ah ha ha ha ha, but of course you’re joking, right? Sure they can. My college roommate was from Bulgaria and that’s how it was done in the Soviet Union and all the Warsaw Pact nations. For some strange reason it didn’t work out very well for them. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-the-only-sound-non-racist-argument-for-immigration-control-ive-ever-read/657822/60 "2013-05-10T03:24:07Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Yes, because every job can pay a middle class wage… ah ha ha ha ha, but of course you’re joking, right? Every job can pay a living wage, if not a middle class wage. No, I’m not joking. Of course, I don’t speak for **BrainGlutton**. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-the-only-sound-non-racist-argument-for-immigration-control-ive-ever-read/657822.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-the-only-sound-non-racist-argument-for-immigration-control-ive-ever-read/657822.md?page=4)