# Debate the only sound, non-racist argument for immigration control I've ever read **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 8, 2013, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-the-only-sound-non-racist-argument-for-immigration-control-ive-ever-read/657822 "2013-05-08T17:34:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-the-only-sound-non-racist-argument-for-immigration-control-ive-ever-read/657822/61 "2013-05-10T03:43:16Z")
The only way that every job can pay a living wage is if the prices of a lot of things go up, in which case you’re back where you started as far as standard of living goes. Another way is for “every job” to mean less jobs. Wal-mart can cut half their staff and double everyone’s pay. More likely you’ll just pay double what you do now for food. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-the-only-sound-non-racist-argument-for-immigration-control-ive-ever-read/657822/62 "2013-05-10T12:40:13Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > No, it’s about their being wage-seeking. From the article… > [@](#): > > Isn’t his proposal a classic case of allowing the gains from low-wage immigration to be privatized by employers (“management and supervisory”) and consumers (“folks who like Chinese food” and strawberries picked by poorly paid immigrants) while the cost is socialized and passed on to the taxpayers who pay for the welfare state? > [@](#): > > Unlike most prominent progressives, Paul Krugman recognizes that you can have a high-wage social democratic welfare state or you can have unlimited immigration — but you can’t have both. Krugman observes that “open immigration can’t exist with a strong social safety net; if you’re going to assure healthcare and a decent income to everyone, you can’t make that offer global.” Seems pretty clear to me. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-the-only-sound-non-racist-argument-for-immigration-control-ive-ever-read/657822/63 "2013-05-10T14:36:44Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Yes, because every job can pay a middle class wage… ah ha ha ha ha, but of course you’re joking, right? Well, I think Lind is thinking mainly in terms of “status equality.” Like in Denmark – you can have a janitor living next door to a doctor, in a smaller house at a lower income, but equally a member of the neighborhood/community – and we used to have that here, but we don’t any more. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-the-only-sound-non-racist-argument-for-immigration-control-ive-ever-read/657822/64 "2013-05-10T14:38:00Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > The only way that every job can pay a living wage is if the prices of a lot of things go up, in which case you’re back where you started as far as standard of living goes. Cite? And I mean one from an economist, and not one from Heritage or Cato, either. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-the-only-sound-non-racist-argument-for-immigration-control-ive-ever-read/657822/65 "2013-05-10T15:14:29Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Well, I think Lind is thinking mainly in terms of “status equality.” Like in Denmark – you can have a janitor living next door to a doctor, in a smaller house at a lower income, but equally a member of the neighborhood/community – and we used to have that here, but we don’t any more. Cite? And I mean from a reliable source, not some hack. Edit: And by that I mean the idea that janitors and doctors used to live together in the same neighborhoods both owning houses. That strikes me as a Leave it to Beaver fantasy. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-the-only-sound-non-racist-argument-for-immigration-control-ive-ever-read/657822/66 "2013-05-10T15:17:04Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Cite? And I mean one from an economist, and not one from Heritage or Cato, either. Huh? You get upset at people criticizing wikipedia, which is famously unreliable, but you get upset at people citing the work of someone from either the Cato or Heritage? Would you mind explaining because that strikes me as jaw-droppingly hypocritical. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-the-only-sound-non-racist-argument-for-immigration-control-ive-ever-read/657822/67 "2013-05-10T15:18:40Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > The only way that every job can pay a living wage is if the prices of a lot of things go up, in which case you’re back where you started as far as standard of living goes. > > Another way is for “every job” to mean less jobs. Wal-mart can cut half their staff and double everyone’s pay. More likely you’ll just pay double what you do now for food. Another way for it to work is for everyone to have enough money to buy things, so the economy grows. That’s what’s wrong with the US economy right now, corporations are thriving on foreign sales and parking the money overseas, and hollowing out the middle class who have long been the engine that keeps the US economy strong. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-the-only-sound-non-racist-argument-for-immigration-control-ive-ever-read/657822/68 "2013-05-10T15:21:08Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Huh? > > You get upset at people criticizing wikipedia, which is famously unreliable, but you get upset at people citing the work of someone from either the Cato or Heritage? > > Would you mind explaining because that strikes me as jaw-droppingly hypocritical. Dude, Cato and the Heritage Institute are well known right wing think tanks, or to put it more accurately, propoganda mills. Getting your data from any institution where policy trumps data is a bad idea. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-the-only-sound-non-racist-argument-for-immigration-control-ive-ever-read/657822/69 "2013-05-10T15:25:26Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Dude, Cato and the Heritage Institute are well known right wing think tanks, or to put it more accurately, propoganda mills. Getting your data from any institution where policy trumps data is a bad idea. I’m not a fan of either and that wasn’t my question. I was confused why BG is such a big defender of wikipedia, which is famously unreliable, yet argues against anything from them. Beyond that, he’s citing Michael Lind who’s also an ideologue, just an ideologue who’s beliefs he finds more palatable. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-the-only-sound-non-racist-argument-for-immigration-control-ive-ever-read/657822/70 "2013-05-10T18:02:18Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Every job can pay a living wage, if not a middle class wage. No, I’m not joking. Of course, I don’t speak for **BrainGlutton**. Sure, it’s possible for someone here (Canada) to live on minimum wage, so it could be possible in the USA, if they raised the minimum wage a bit and had a real universal health insurance system. “Living” is not a particularly close approximation of “middle class,” at least by modern standards. You can get by with shelter, food, and health care in a reasonably well run country while working for ten or twelve bucks an hour, but nobody is going to call it “middle class.” [QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Like in Denmark – you can have a janitor living next door to a doctor, in a smaller house at a lower income, but equally a member of the neighborhood/community – and we used to have that here, but we don’t any more. [/QUOTE] What a fascinatingly anecdotal, vague, disconnected statement. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-the-only-sound-non-racist-argument-for-immigration-control-ive-ever-read/657822/71 "2013-05-10T19:03:08Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Sure, it’s possible for someone here (Canada) to live on minimum wage, so it could be possible in the USA, if they raised the minimum wage a bit and had a real universal health insurance system. “Living” is not a particularly close approximation of “middle class,” at least by modern standards. You can get by with shelter, food, and health care in a reasonably well run country while working for ten or twelve bucks an hour, but nobody is going to call it “middle class.” I’ll also point out that twelve bucks an hour is substantially about minimum wage. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-the-only-sound-non-racist-argument-for-immigration-control-ive-ever-read/657822/72 "2013-05-10T19:06:14Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I’ll also point out that twelve bucks an hour is substantially about minimum wage. You mean in Canada, right? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-the-only-sound-non-racist-argument-for-immigration-control-ive-ever-read/657822/73 "2013-05-10T19:08:02Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Huh? > > You get upset at people criticizing wikipedia, which is famously unreliable, but you get upset at people citing the work of someone from either the Cato or Heritage? > > Would you mind explaining because that strikes me as jaw-droppingly hypocritical. Wikipedia is “unreliable” but unbiased. That makes all the difference. Besides, Wikipedia is never a source for “studies” of its own, it only provides some discussion of and links to such. “Get Your Own Damn Cites.” ---
**Author:** ![Docta\_G](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2bfe46/32.png) [@Docta\_G](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Docta_G)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-the-only-sound-non-racist-argument-for-immigration-control-ive-ever-read/657822/74 "2013-05-10T19:17:27Z")
_Sound_ in propositional logic means that the argument is valid–if the premises are true the conclusion must be true–and that the premises are indeed true. There is no non-trivial but sound argument for that conclusion. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-the-only-sound-non-racist-argument-for-immigration-control-ive-ever-read/657822/75 "2013-05-10T20:53:25Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Wikipedia is “unreliable” but unbiased. That makes all the difference. Thank you for conceding that wikipedia is unreliable and backing down from past statements. That said, it is certainly very biased in a number of ways and it is absurd to argue otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-the-only-sound-non-racist-argument-for-immigration-control-ive-ever-read/657822/76 "2013-05-10T20:54:51Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > You mean in Canada, right? I suspect so. From what I’ve heard, and Canadian dopers feel free to correct me if I’m wrong, but my understand is that the cost of living in Canada is significantly higher than the US. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-the-only-sound-non-racist-argument-for-immigration-control-ive-ever-read/657822/77 "2013-05-10T22:29:55Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I suspect so. > > From what I’ve heard, and Canadian dopers feel free to correct me if I’m wrong, but my understand is that the cost of living in Canada is significantly higher than the US. Not by much, I wouldn’t think. Most sources suggest about 5-10%. Like the USA, cost of living in Canada is heavily dependent upon where you are; urban is more expensive than rural, and some cities are pricier than others. Canada isn’t even close to places like the UK or western Europe. I found the prices there flabbergasting. I don’t know how people afford it. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-the-only-sound-non-racist-argument-for-immigration-control-ive-ever-read/657822/78 "2013-05-10T22:31:06Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Not by much, I wouldn’t think. Most sources suggest about 5-10%. > > Like the USA, cost of living in Canada is heavily dependent upon where you are; urban is more expensive than rural, and some cities are pricier than others. > > Canada isn’t even close to places like the UK or western Europe. I found the prices there flabbergasting. I don’t know how people afford it. So, what is Canada’s immigration policy like, compared with the U.S.’ or Mexico’s? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-the-only-sound-non-racist-argument-for-immigration-control-ive-ever-read/657822/79 "2013-05-10T22:46:04Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Thank you for conceding that wikipedia is unreliable and backing down from past statements. Wikipedia is at any rate more reliable than any blog on the Net. Its imperfections arise from open-source content, but there are mechanisms in place to correct errors and a lot of effort goes into it, and any article on which contributors persistently and strongly disagree is at any rate prominently flagged “NEUTRALITY DISPUTED,” and further talk is always invited. What it is, is a sort of constant rough fractal-iteration towards the Perfect Truth. Wikipedia, not surprisingly, has [a page on the issue.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bias_in_wikipedia) (Get Your Own Damn Cites.) > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > That said, it is certainly very biased in a number of ways and it is absurd to argue otherwise. :rolleyes: **That** shit again? Let’s see what a truly unbiased (save towards Reason) site like [RationalWiki](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Wikipedia) says: > [@](#): > > Critics of Wikipedia > > Critics of Wikipedia often cite the fact that anyone can edit it as the reason that it is unreliable. It is certainly true that Wikipedia’s open editing policy sometimes causes problems, known as “vandalism” or “wandalism”. This is the main criticism brought up in popular media, where actual knowledge of how the wiki operates is seldom in evidence. While it’s true that anyone can add misinformation, it’s also true that anyone can _remove_ it. The MediaWiki software even has a handy button to do this, and numerous bots and editors patrol recent edits to make sure none are obviously malicious — the average unwanted edit usually lasts about one minute on Wikipedia. Coupled with the fact that any article likely to receive attention from vandals is protected or semi-protected from anonymous editing[13] the wiki isn’t in much danger of being overridden by obvious vandalism. More subtle vandalism, errors, and distortions (intentional or otherwise) are another matter entirely. > > In reality, one of the major drawbacks of Wikipedia is its excessive bureaucracy that is evident when you get deeply involved in writing for it or patrolling its edits. Its pages on policy and style are numerous, and probably larger than the whole of RationalWiki (that’s including talk and non-mainspace entries). The implementation of its rules in letter rather than spirit by its senior members is also an issue. > > **Bias in Wikipedia** > > Wikipedia attempts to maintain a neutral point of view, and although there is admitted difficulty in attaining this goal,[14] policies are in place to try to filter out and resist pervasive bias. Unfortunately almost no one agrees on what “neutrality” actually means. > > When used by conservatives, the phrase “bias in Wikipedia” is insider jargon for Wikipedia’s aspirations to objectivity, citable fact and reality, rather than subjectivity, irrationality, and extreme points of view in the creation evolution of their encyclopedic articles. Naturally, they consider everything else (especially things that are _neutral_) to have a liberal bias. When one considers that anything not far-right is by its very nature, to the “left” of that Conservative stance, their logic is impeccable. > > When used by left-wingers, the phrase “bias in Wikipedia” means the site is run by Libertarian drone armies and controlled by the CIA. > > Various well-heeled organizations, including the CIA, Microsoft, Fox News, and Diebold, along with many presumably less well-heeled celebrities, have altered Wikipedia entries to suit their own agendas and make themselves look good.[15][16][17] Promotional language is easy to spot once you’re used to Wikipedia’s dull gray house style, and Wikipedia regulars are very good at picking up on it. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-the-only-sound-non-racist-argument-for-immigration-control-ive-ever-read/657822/80 "2013-05-10T22:49:53Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Canada isn’t even close to places like the UK or western Europe. I found the prices there flabbergasting. I don’t know how people afford it. Well, obviously, their incomes are commensurately higher. But it’s no way to attract tourists. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-the-only-sound-non-racist-argument-for-immigration-control-ive-ever-read/657822.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-the-only-sound-non-racist-argument-for-immigration-control-ive-ever-read/657822.md?page=5)