# Debate: You can't say anything "of substance" on this board **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 4, 2023, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-you-cant-say-anything-of-substance-on-this-board/979312 "2023-02-04T19:35:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2023, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-you-cant-say-anything-of-substance-on-this-board/979312/181 "2023-02-06T17:36:35Z")
I’m not the language police. I pretty much never jump on people for using a term like “fireman”. I wouldn’t have said anything about “duuude”. But if folks are going to claim that it’s no longer the 50s and there’s no masculine bias left in English, I’m going to disagree stoutly. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2023, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-you-cant-say-anything-of-substance-on-this-board/979312/182 "2023-02-06T17:49:20Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > But if folks are going to claim that it’s no longer the 50s and there’s no masculine bias left in English, I’m going to disagree stoutly. I absolutely agree with you. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2023, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-you-cant-say-anything-of-substance-on-this-board/979312/183 "2023-02-06T18:03:55Z")
I’d say there is a gender neutral “dude,” but it’s when it’s used as an exclamation of surprise or wonder, similar to “wow” or “whoah.” “The blue whale eats up to six tons of krill a day!” “Dude! That’s a lot of tiny shrimp!” It can also be used as a sort of vocalized pause at the beginning of a sentence to allow the speaker time to gather their thoughts, similar to how “like” is often used. “What do you want for lunch?” “Dude… how about burritos?” The problem is it can sometimes be difficult to distinguish these usages from addressing the other person as “dude,” which leads to the perception that “dude” refers to both men and women. But it doesn’t often get used that way, except in false inclusivity scenarios, where a mixed gender group is referred to by masculine word (“The dudes who work in IT…”). The relatively rare instances where someone refers to a specific woman as a dude usually occurs in a context where the woman in question displays supposedly “masculine” characteristics or interests: Molly the flannel-wearing skater is a “dude,” Cindy the skirt-wearing cheerleader is not. This usage also generally only applies to women that the speaker approves of, while it gets applied to men more universally: “Some dude cut me off in traffic,” is almost never going to refer to a female driver. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2023, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-you-cant-say-anything-of-substance-on-this-board/979312/184 "2023-02-06T18:35:43Z")
I find it hilarious that a thread about posters picking arguments is hijacked by posters picking arguments. Good show, good show! ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2023, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-you-cant-say-anything-of-substance-on-this-board/979312/185 "2023-02-06T18:36:13Z")
I’m amused (but not smugly or condescendingly 🙂) that the arguing over patriarchal norms in this thread has got me musing on the pronounced male to female gender migration of personal names in the United States. I get why the reverse isn’t happening and I’m sure it is indeed patriarchal in a machismo sort of way (i.e. the [A Boy Named Sue](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOHPuY88Ry4) problem). But I’ve always wondered why the migration has been occurring at all. Surely it can’t be 20th century parents disappointed in not having boys deciding to name their daughters Taylor or Madison? ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2023, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-you-cant-say-anything-of-substance-on-this-board/979312/186 "2023-02-06T18:40:03Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I’d say there is a gender neutral “dude,” but it’s when it’s used as an exclamation of surprise or wonder, similar to “wow” or “whoah.” I’ve even found myself exclaiming “Dude!” when I’m by myself. It’s not being addressed to anyone, it just essentially means, “What the fuck?!” It can be good or bad; my car won’t start for some reason, or I find out that a show that I really like but expected to be canceled was renewed another season. It’s like “wow” just as you said. I very rarely use it to refer to a specific person unless they are male. Though I might use it as an exclamation while talking to them. But I’m not labeling them with it, it’s just a generic expression. Why do I do that? I grew up in the 80s and I was exposed to that usage often, and it got imprinted on my brain. It’s also often that I say “dude” to one of my daughters in a scolding way, but this is again just the same way you might say “hey”. My wife does the same thing, she’s my age. I think it’s just how we grew up. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2023, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-you-cant-say-anything-of-substance-on-this-board/979312/187 "2023-02-06T18:41:55Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > I find it hilarious that a thread about posters picking arguments is hijacked by posters picking arguments. Good show, good show! Whereas I thought it interesting that a thread about the difficulty of discussing anything of substance has sparked a fairly substantial discussion about gender in current English. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2023, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-you-cant-say-anything-of-substance-on-this-board/979312/188 "2023-02-06T18:45:18Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I skimmed the thread. Maybe don’t do that? Specifically, don’t respond petulantly in a thread if you can’t be bothered to read it? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2023, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-you-cant-say-anything-of-substance-on-this-board/979312/189 "2023-02-06T18:46:18Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > some mysterious conspiratorial “patriarchy” Wait, ignoring the obvious strawman bullshit of “conspiratorial”, but it seems you’re in denial about the existence of the patriarchy itself? This keeps getting better and better. I mean, dumber and dumber. > [@wolfpup](#): > > women are helpless housewives in a male-dominated world Again, strawman bullshit I never said - in fact, _explicitly_ said otherwise, by referencing other kinds of women. > [@wolfpup](#): > > I’m sorry that you find my challenges to your arguments inconvenient. No, I find them amusing. It’s the _repeated_ wobbliness of your convictions that really draw a chuckle, though. You know how to avoid that? Don’t make a song-and-dance of flouncing, then immediately unflounce. It makes you look silly. > [@wolfpup](#): > > Frankly I continue to get drawn in because of the sheer _wrongness_ of your arguments Yes, yes, Mr Munroe, whatever you say, whatever you say. > [@wolfpup](#): > > The meaning of “hamstrung” is more obscure A little bit, but it’s hardly “houghed”. > [@wolfpup](#): > > Furthermore, to those who understand its literal meaning, it literally means “_ **to cripple** _ But it doesn’t have the _baggage_ of being used as a pejorative for all kinds of people with disabilities, the way “cripple” has. > [@wolfpup](#): > > whereas “crippled” is simple, succinct, and universally understood …and offensive to some people with disabilities. > [@wolfpup](#): > > not the intended meaning in the tech context Close enough for government work. > [@wolfpup](#): > > Given evidence that a significant number of people Why am I sure that “significant” is going to be some impossible-to-satisfy fraction for you? > [@wolfpup](#): > > be the result of the machinations of the kind of self-serving do-gooders that many issue advocacy organizations turn into when they become bloated bureaucracies. Why am I getting an image of some grudgy asshole who’s been turfed from more than one social NGO for being an annoying pedantic twit? Either that or someone who’s never actually worked with a social NGO in their life but has a vivid imagination for how they must work. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2023, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-you-cant-say-anything-of-substance-on-this-board/979312/190 "2023-02-06T18:48:22Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > It’s not that “men control how language evolves”. It’s that assumptions that are patriarchal in nature, and that assume that it’s normative to be male, have a great deal of influence on our language, to the detriment of those who aren’t male. Exactly. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2023, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-you-cant-say-anything-of-substance-on-this-board/979312/191 "2023-02-06T18:48:40Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > > [@Pleonast](#): > > > > I find it hilarious that a thread about posters picking arguments is hijacked by posters picking arguments. Good show, good show! > > Whereas I thought it interesting that a thread about the difficulty of discussing anything of substance has sparked a fairly substantial discussion about gender in current English.   The board _does_ have many posters more interested in dispelling ignorance than arguing, and that leads to useful hijacks, so it’s a classic SDMB trope. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2023, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-you-cant-say-anything-of-substance-on-this-board/979312/192 "2023-02-06T18:52:48Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I’d say there is a gender neutral “dude,” but it’s when it’s used as an exclamation of surprise or wonder, similar to “wow” or “whoah.” This I can agree with (rest of your post too). ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2023, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-you-cant-say-anything-of-substance-on-this-board/979312/193 "2023-02-06T19:01:45Z")
It is kind of weird how other languages have gender for nouns that has little to do with human gender, whereas English takes words like “dude” and “guy” and even “bitch” and incompletely de-genders them. I won’t jump down someone’s throat for using these words (unless there are other factos that make it worse), but it is worth thinking about how we use them. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2023, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-you-cant-say-anything-of-substance-on-this-board/979312/194 "2023-02-06T19:05:13Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > I’m amused (but not smugly or condescendingly 🙂) that the arguing over patriarchal norms in this thread has got me musing on the pronounced male to female gender migration of personal names in the United States. I get why the reverse isn’t happening and I’m sure it is indeed patriarchal in a machismo sort of way (i.e. the [A Boy Named Sue](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOHPuY88Ry4) problem). But I’ve always wondered why the migration has been occurring at all. Surely it can’t be 20th century parents disappointed in not having boys deciding to name their daughters Taylor or Madison? The reason that the name migration is mostly one way is that women are at a disadvantage in this society. It’s the same reason women wear pants but men don’t wear dresses. Women want access to the advantages that men have assigned solely to themselves. A gender-neutral name is a kind of signaling of this. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2023, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-you-cant-say-anything-of-substance-on-this-board/979312/195 "2023-02-06T19:28:24Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > The reason that the name migration is mostly one way is that women are at a disadvantage in this society. It’s the same reason women wear pants but men don’t wear dresses. Women want access to the advantages that men have assigned solely to themselves. A gender-neutral name is a kind of signaling of this. Shel Silverstein captured the flip side of this (and I do mean _flip_) in _A Boy Named Sue_, when the titular character tracks down his long-lost father and beats him up and gets an explanation: > [@](#): > > And he said, “Son, this world is rough > And if a man’s gonna make it, he’s gotta be tough > I knew I wouldn’t be there to help you along > So I give you that name, and I said goodbye > And I knew you’d have to get tough or die > It’s that name that helped to make you strong” > > He said, "Now you just fought one heck of a fight > And I know you hate me, and you got the right to kill me now > And I wouldn’t blame you if you do > But you ought to thank me, before I die > For the gravel in ya gut and the spit in ya eye > 'Cause I’m the son of a bitch that named you Sue In other words, merely having a traditionally feminine name would be such a horrible threat to a man’s life that he’d have to compensate through supremely exaggerated masculine aggression just in order to survive. The patriarchy harms us all. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2023, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-you-cant-say-anything-of-substance-on-this-board/979312/196 "2023-02-06T19:43:08Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > Women want access to the advantages that men have assigned solely to themselves. A gender-neutral name is a kind of signaling of this. Sure, that would make sense if one were consciously choosing a name for themselves (I have female relatives that have gone a similar route as adults, rejecting their birth names). But were parents making that call, especially going back many decades to less enlightened times (say the name Kelly, for example)? Seems unlikely that Bob and Norma Everyday-American in 1970 were naming their baby daughter Kelly as a protest to patriarchal genderism. The question isn’t why it has been mostly one-way, the question is why at all in the days before people thought much about the importance of gender in language. I mean Joyce started out as a masculine name. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2023, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-you-cant-say-anything-of-substance-on-this-board/979312/197 "2023-02-06T19:45:05Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Shel Silverstein captured the flip side of this… Consider my mind blown. I never knew the Johnny Cash song was a word-for-word version of a poem. 🤯 ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2023, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-you-cant-say-anything-of-substance-on-this-board/979312/198 "2023-02-06T19:46:13Z")
No, they were naming her Kelly to minimize the damage the patriarchal genderism would do to her. Just as some Black and Asian parents intentionally pick “boring White names” for their kids. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2023, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-you-cant-say-anything-of-substance-on-this-board/979312/199 "2023-02-06T19:52:33Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > No, they were naming her Kelly to minimize the damage the patriarchal genderism would do to her. Were they? I just am skeptical of that argument for earlier generations - I wouldn’t think any but academics and intellectuals were allthat consciously cognizant of patriarchal genderism in language in the 1960’s when Kelly was hitting an early peak in popularity for girls. But I’ll admit I might be wrong here… ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2023, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-you-cant-say-anything-of-substance-on-this-board/979312/200 "2023-02-06T19:54:58Z")
My mother wanted to be a doctor. But women couldn’t. She wanted to write an honors thesis in college. But the department didn’t want to waste the time of a faculty member supervising a woman. Those were in the 50s. How can you think that women weren’t aware of patriarchal genderism in the 60s? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-you-cant-say-anything-of-substance-on-this-board/979312.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-you-cant-say-anything-of-substance-on-this-board/979312.md?page=11)