# Debate: You can't say anything "of substance" on this board **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 4, 2023, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-you-cant-say-anything-of-substance-on-this-board/979312 "2023-02-04T19:35:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2023, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-you-cant-say-anything-of-substance-on-this-board/979312/81 "2023-02-05T13:36:30Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Can you imagine an actual trickster-type _telling_ someone they’re an “irreverent trickster”? Fuck no. That’s a bit of insecure puffery. > > Get over yourself. You’re no trickster. Yeah, that one made me scoff audibly. Also, I think E is overestimating the quality of humor in the “gentle ribbing” you’ve demonstrated in the last few days. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2023, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-you-cant-say-anything-of-substance-on-this-board/979312/82 "2023-02-05T13:57:20Z")
No matter what, clearly **Aeschines** does not like being referred to as E, maybe you could be polite and refrain from such when referring to other posters. It is odd behavior to persist in using pronouns for others that no one else uses. Continuing here in this case seems jerkish. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2023, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-you-cant-say-anything-of-substance-on-this-board/979312/83 "2023-02-05T14:09:13Z")
Oh. I guess Coyote McLoki Anansipoulos over here doesn’t see the rhetorical value in some dry wit and gentle ribbing. Noted. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2023, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-you-cant-say-anything-of-substance-on-this-board/979312/84 "2023-02-05T14:54:59Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > One of the things I’ve learned is that when someone tells you about their own positive character traits, the following things are usually true A woman i once met told me she was good at juggling before demonstrating. She said, “i used to profess modesty, but then i realized that people tend to take you at your word. So i would say something modest, and then do a really hard trick juggling. But my audience didn’t know how hard it was, so they went away thinking i was mediocre, instead of thinking i was shy or modest. So now i tell people I’m really good at juggling.” She had a point. Maybe it’s a point more important to share with other women, as women are socialized to be overly modest. But it stuck with me. She was talking about skills, not character traits. But there’s probably some truth for that, too. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2023, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-you-cant-say-anything-of-substance-on-this-board/979312/85 "2023-02-05T15:07:12Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > She had a point. Maybe it’s a point more important to share with other women, as women are socialized to be overly modest. But it stuck with me. I wonder if there is a gender gap, there. As a male, I tend to find modesty actually leads to an overstated impression of my talents. Or perhaps I just don’t self-assess well. I do think I’m good at what I do, but not as good as others think I am at what I do. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2023, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-you-cant-say-anything-of-substance-on-this-board/979312/86 "2023-02-05T15:14:29Z")
Friends, thank you for the participation and the education. It was a revisit to a side of the Dope I don’t like and have avoided, and I’ve been reminded why. I will not make the claim that I have been particularly clever or funny in the process. If I have said something genuinely hurtful to someone, I apologize. ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2023, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-you-cant-say-anything-of-substance-on-this-board/979312/87 "2023-02-05T15:31:47Z")
Well, this is the first Pit thread I have followed in a long time, and I think the subject matter is of substance and has been handled in a very civil matter given that the Pit allows open insults. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2023, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-you-cant-say-anything-of-substance-on-this-board/979312/88 "2023-02-05T15:44:03Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > I’ll admit to having issues with **Lynn** , but I understand she was going through some serious health issues at the time. At least **Lynn** tried to keep a tight lid on the trolling down here. > [@What\_Exit](#): > > Who am I forgetting? **SkipMagic**. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2023, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-you-cant-say-anything-of-substance-on-this-board/979312/89 "2023-02-05T15:53:59Z")
Yeah. Women have the double-misfortunate that when they are humble, they are treated low, and if they prop up themselves, they run the risk of being accused of being uppity. Sure, men may be accused of arrogance if they talk up themselves, but they are somewhat likelier to be seen as “simply honestly stating their skills/merits.” When Kobe Bryant stated that he was the best player in the NBA (2010-ish?), most people just took it as a calm statement of fact, IIRC. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2023, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-you-cant-say-anything-of-substance-on-this-board/979312/90 "2023-02-05T17:29:24Z")
‘When E gets no traction…’ Can someone translate, what does this mean? Who’s E? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2023, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-you-cant-say-anything-of-substance-on-this-board/979312/91 "2023-02-05T17:41:20Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > Who’s E? The Eels lead singer. > **[Mark Oliver Everett](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Oliver_Everett)** > > Mark Oliver Everett (born April 10, 1963) is an American singer, songwriter, multi-instrumentalist and the frontman of the rock band Eels. Also known as E, he is known for writing songs tackling subjects such as death, loneliness, divorce, childhood innocence, depression, and unrequited love, often from personal experience. > Everett is the son of physicist Hugh Everett III, originator of the many-worlds interpretation of quantum theory. Mark's maternal grandfather was Harold "Kid" Gore, a men... ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2023, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-you-cant-say-anything-of-substance-on-this-board/979312/92 "2023-02-05T18:06:22Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > Now, people are going to come into the Pit now and tell me I’m wrong and an idiot. But that just makes my point for me. > [@Aeschines](#): > > If I have said something genuinely hurtful to someone, I apologize. Classic rejoinders to be treasured. Or not. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2023, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-you-cant-say-anything-of-substance-on-this-board/979312/93 "2023-02-05T18:21:33Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > ‘When E gets no traction…’ > > Can someone translate, what does this mean? > Who’s E? Just in case you missed it upthread (and assuming we aren’t talking about Mark Oliver Everett!) > [@puzzlegal](#): > > See, this is you being a jerk. If you read much that Acsenray posts, you will notice that Acsenray consistently uses gender neutral “e” pronouns for everyone. It’s true that the singular “they” seems to have won in the field of “gender neutral pronouns”, but that wasn’t clear for a long time, and E, es, em was a leading contender. I still prefer it, personally. At any rate, it means nothing about you that Acsenray used it, and now your are making a fuss about it, as best as i can tell because Acsenray is disagreeing with you. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2023, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-you-cant-say-anything-of-substance-on-this-board/979312/94 "2023-02-05T19:41:16Z")
Seriously? Has invented his own pronoun? And expects, when he uses it, that people are just supposed to ‘get it’? Like, didn’t bother to define it for readers? I thank you very much for clearing that up for me, I appreciate it so much. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2023, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-you-cant-say-anything-of-substance-on-this-board/979312/95 "2023-02-05T20:02:16Z")
Yes and I called E for it and now E is pm’ing me. Really annoying shit in fact. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2023, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-you-cant-say-anything-of-substance-on-this-board/979312/96 "2023-02-05T21:11:33Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > Look, I am an irreverent Trickster type. Gemini for the win. No, you act like an aggressive jerk and try to rationalize it by giving it a cute nickname. You say the board is ruined by assholes and yet you insist on being one. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2023, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-you-cant-say-anything-of-substance-on-this-board/979312/97 "2023-02-05T21:18:09Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > Seriously? Has invented his own pronoun? And expects, when he uses it, that people are just supposed to ‘get it’? Like, didn’t bother to define it for readers? It’s been being used by that poster for a coupla-two-tree years now, I want to say (or it feels like it). I remember it being defined way back when. I just write it off as a harmless (though distracting) quirk, but, I admit, there’s a bit of a “stop tryin’ to make _fetch_ happen” vibe to it. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2023, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-you-cant-say-anything-of-substance-on-this-board/979312/98 "2023-02-05T21:20:02Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > I just write it off as a harmless (though distracting) quirk, but, I admit, there’s a bit of a “stop tryin’ to make _fetch_ happen” vibe to it. I just ignore it. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2023, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-you-cant-say-anything-of-substance-on-this-board/979312/99 "2023-02-05T21:24:25Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > I remember it being defined way back when. I just write it off as a harmless (though distracting) quirk, but, I admit, there’s a bit of a “stop tryin’ to make _fetch_ happen” vibe to it. Let us remove the phrase to a rock mine and yeet it in there! ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2023, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-you-cant-say-anything-of-substance-on-this-board/979312/100 "2023-02-05T21:35:53Z")
No, i think that’s the first gender-neutral singular pronouns on record to be used in English writing, not counting the limited use of “they”. “They” had a long history of being used for an unknown party, but had only recently been widely used to refer to a single known person. “E” was invented about a hundred years ago to fix that. > **[Spivak pronoun](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spivak_pronoun)** > > Pages for logged out editors learn more > > The Spivak pronouns are a set of gender-neutral pronouns in English promulgated on the virtual community LambdaMOO based on pronouns used in a book by American mathematician Michael Spivak. Though not in widespread use, they have been employed in writing for gender-neutral language by those who wish to avoid the standard terms "he/she" or singular they. > Three variants of the Spivak pronouns are in use, Rogers (1890), Elverson (1975), and LambdaM... If you use them in speech, rather than in writing, people pretty much always immediately “get” them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-you-cant-say-anything-of-substance-on-this-board/979312.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-you-cant-say-anything-of-substance-on-this-board/979312.md?page=6)