# Debate: You can't say anything "of substance" on this board **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 4, 2023, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-you-cant-say-anything-of-substance-on-this-board/979312 "2023-02-04T19:35:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2023, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-you-cant-say-anything-of-substance-on-this-board/979312/101 "2023-02-06T00:07:30Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > That sounds cool! I’ll check it out. Correction – I’m sorry to say it was a letdown. High concept, low effort. > [@Aeschines](#): > > I do not know the person’s posting habits at all. I had not heard of E, es, em. It looks like some sort of mistake in Latin, a language I wasted a bit of time on in high school. They/them is actually English, so let’s use that! Personally, I would find it grating to be stripped of my gender identity by a gender-neutral pronoun I can’t even follow. You very clearly identified in that thread as a man, so I don’t understand why you were misgendered this way. In addition to being (in my view) rude, it creates total confusion for me trying to parse those posts. If E wants to be referred to by these pronouns it’s one thing, but to impose them on others is going too far IMO. But E has expressed in the past the desire to eliminate all gendered language regardless of how everyone else feels about it, so I doubt it will make much difference to es how one individual feels. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2023, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-you-cant-say-anything-of-substance-on-this-board/979312/102 "2023-02-06T00:30:14Z")
It’s not commonly done, @aeschines, but since they were _my_ messages, I am going to copy and paste the two (2) private messages I sent to the mods about my post. Bolding mine, not in original: > [@](#): > > Eh, Aeschines knowingly misgendered a poster, I called him (pretty sure) out on it, I’m bowing out of the thread but wanted to let y’all know in case this flares up. Thx, JT A couple of mod responses, then me again: > [@](#): > > The issue I wanted to bring to your attention is a potential threadjack initiated by me on a topic which I bowed out of right after, and not to moderate Aeschines himself. > > To be more clear: I didn’t report him for misgendering. I reported myself for a potential thread jack. > > If Aeschines wants to continue defending himself, that’s fine, it’s “his” thread, but **if there developed a pile-on the poor guy merely because of my comment… as occasionally happens… I didn’t want to wake up to 100 messages of people screaming back and forth in some thread coupled with an official warning on my behalf for threadjacking/attacking outside the pit/etc.** > > I hope this clears some things up. > > (I still think it was extremely rude and I still think I was right to call him out on it.) I do not know what to say but to note that you did to yourself the very thing I was concerned would happen to you! I have no beef with you. You were just potentially rude to a woman I consider a Doper of note. I noted that “dude” was typically applied to men… > **[Definition of DUDE](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dude)** > > a man extremely fastidious in dress and manner : dandy; a city dweller unfamiliar with life on the range; especially : an Easterner in the West; fellow, guy —sometimes used as a term of address… See the full definition … and instead of saying “I don’t think this is wrong, but I do apologize if (I’m not dragging her into this) took offense. I was merely being informal”, you… did… this… :waves hands around: Three threads. I don’t know how many posts. I haven’t visited the original thread since I muted it _Thursday night_. I didn’t know the ATMB thread I suggested (in case you wanted me to clarify my point) was made until I was tagged by Puzzlegal _fifty posts in_. I asked you to take it to ATMB (or the Pit, given how angry you became) if you wanted to discuss my reasoning more, and you didn’t even have the, yes, courtesy to tag me. Or even make it about the topic at hand because by then you had _spun up_ this “fight” into something else entirely. And you then did it again by joining in this Pit thread. A third topic! _ **I asked the mods to help ensure there wasn’t a pile-on and you piled-on yourself.** _ Aeschines, this is not healthy. I know you think I’m some sort of liberal asshole or whatever, and it’s fine to believe that, I don’t care (well, I do but this isn’t the time nor place). But your original thread about your struggles and then… :waves hands around again: … this isn’t healthy. And I’m sorry you are hurting, my friend, but I am not the instrument of your pain. And if you believe I am, go ahead and ignore me. It’s OK. Be safe, John ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2023, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-you-cant-say-anything-of-substance-on-this-board/979312/103 "2023-02-06T01:25:49Z")
Seriously? You got your panties in a wad in that thread because @Aeschines used the colloquial term “Dude” to refer to a woman, and now it’s the mortal sin of “knowingly misgendering a poster”? Turn the offended liberal sensitivity down about five notches, for Christ’s sake. This is the sort of nonsense that drives me crazy around here too- some of this stuff is just flat out stupid. People use the term “Dude” all the time for men and women, and it’s not a particularly gendered term, no more so than “Man” (as in “Man, it’s hot out here”) when talking to either sex. Someone who has a problem with either really needs to self-examine _their_ reaction, not get angry at the person using a widely used colloquial term in the accepted usage. And it’s not that other person’s problem in the least bit. But around here, someone will gripe at you about nonsense like this and you’re supposed to take it seriously for some unfathomable reason. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2023, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-you-cant-say-anything-of-substance-on-this-board/979312/104 "2023-02-06T01:33:44Z")
> [@bump](#): > > People use the term “Dude” all the time for men and women, and it’s not a particularly gendered term, no more so than “Man” (as in “Man, it’s hot out here”) when talking to either sex. FTR, that was pretty much my reply to the flag. Dudes and Guys are largely gender neutral now. I doubled checked, both mods that commented agreed Dude was not a problem. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2023, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-you-cant-say-anything-of-substance-on-this-board/979312/105 "2023-02-06T01:36:31Z")
? I didn’t get my panties in a wad. I made note of the fact that the poster was female, that “dude” is male (cited, literally, above), and perhaps the female poster being referred to as “dude” may not appreciate that. This is called being considerate. Mannered. Polite. And then I bowed out of it, my point having been made. I didn’t need to make it again. I have teams in Africa and Asia reporting to me. You think I have any idea if Chirag or Ghirja is male or female? You think I have any idea if they would appreciate being called by the wrong gender? I don’t. I literally have no idea if they would be offended, cool, not even notice, or somewhere in between. So I try not to! It’s not that hard! I don’t have to call someone by a nickname which implies a gender if I don’t have to. So I don’t. It’s that simple, Bump. And if I feel the need to, I ask for their pronouns. Manners. Politeness. Thinking of the other person in how you address them. I legitimately do not understand why this is controversial, much less difficult. Anyway, guys and gals, having said that, _again_, I’m done here. If you disagree, you disagree. And that’s OK. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2023, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-you-cant-say-anything-of-substance-on-this-board/979312/106 "2023-02-06T01:41:18Z")
I think the OP said some lazy things about gender in the thread which was getting everyone’s hackles up. I don’t think the issue was strictly about misgendering anyone, even though that was the thing **JohnT** pounced on. There was just a general feeling of tired sexist tropes and it was getting on some people’s nerves. That resulted in the thread getting a bit heated and the aforementioned highjack. So, no, I would say if you read the hijack in context it really wasn’t just about misgendering someone with “Duuude.” It was about a woman who objected to the content of the OP’s posts being treated dismissively by the OP. Now she wasn’t the nicest in that thread either but I’m just saying I think that’s the root of the highjack. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2023, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-you-cant-say-anything-of-substance-on-this-board/979312/107 "2023-02-06T01:43:16Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > Dudes and Guys are largely gender neutral now. …no, it largely is not. It can be situational, dependent on context, dependent on where you live, on who you are addressing. Calling a trans woman a “dude”, for example, is typically not appropriate. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2023, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-you-cant-say-anything-of-substance-on-this-board/979312/108 "2023-02-06T01:47:21Z")
Largely would tend to indicate most of the time. To the best of knowledge, this was not a transgender issue until you just brought it up. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2023, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-you-cant-say-anything-of-substance-on-this-board/979312/109 "2023-02-06T01:49:12Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > Largely would tend to indicate most of the time. …and what are you basing that on? > [@What\_Exit](#): > > To the best of knowledge, this was not a transgender issue until you just brought it up. Well it is, and I’ve made that mistake in real life and was told in no uncertain terms to “cut it out.” ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2023, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-you-cant-say-anything-of-substance-on-this-board/979312/110 "2023-02-06T01:50:40Z")
Jesus, what the hell is your problem. The argument clinic is the next room down. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2023, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-you-cant-say-anything-of-substance-on-this-board/979312/111 "2023-02-06T01:50:41Z")
I mean, since we can’t click the link or anything: > [@](#): > > # dude > > 1 of 2 > > ## [noun](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/noun) > > [ˈdüd](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dude?pronunciation&lang=en_us&dir=d&file=dude0001) > > also ˈdyüd > > 1 **:** a man extremely [fastidious](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fastidious) in dress and manner **:** [DANDY](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dandy) > > 2 **:** a city dweller unfamiliar with life on the range (see [RANGE entry 1 sense 3b](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/range#h1)), especially **:** an Easterner in the West > > 3 informal **:** [FELLOW](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fellow), [GUY](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/guy) > > The other girls in the program never go out, so I always find myself out with dudes from my program.—_Cosmopolitan_ > > —sometimes used as a term of address > > Hey, dude, what’s up? To quote myself: > [@JohnT](#): > > I legitimately do not understand why this is controversial, much less difficult. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2023, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-you-cant-say-anything-of-substance-on-this-board/979312/112 "2023-02-06T02:28:52Z")
Dude. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2023, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-you-cant-say-anything-of-substance-on-this-board/979312/113 "2023-02-06T03:44:38Z")
It’s not a transgender issue, unless being oversensitive and ridiculous is a transgender issue. I think there may be two usages at odds here; there’s saying “He’s a dude”, or “That dude over there.” Those are definitely masculine. But if someone were to say… trip someone accidentally, or spill their soup on them, they might well respond with “Dude! Watch it!” and it’s more of an exclamation than anything specifically meant to imply gender. Just like saying “Man, I’d like a hot shower, I smell bad.” Using “Man” in that context doesn’t mean you’re talking to a man necessarily. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2023, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-you-cant-say-anything-of-substance-on-this-board/979312/114 "2023-02-06T03:48:56Z")
> [@bump](#): > > It’s not a transgender issue, unless being oversensitive and ridiculous is a transgender issue. …this isn’t your place to speak. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2023, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-you-cant-say-anything-of-substance-on-this-board/979312/115 "2023-02-06T03:49:28Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > … this isn’t healthy. And I’m sorry you are hurting, my friend, but I am not the instrument of your pain. And if you believe I am, go ahead and ignore me. It’s OK. It’s cool, man. I’m not invested in the conflict either, so let’s a call truce and be cordial going forward. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2023, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-you-cant-say-anything-of-substance-on-this-board/979312/116 "2023-02-06T03:52:22Z")
Man, I can’t roll my eyes hard enough. This is absurd. (oh, and I have no idea what gender you are. This is an example of that gender-neutral “man” usage, FYI) ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2023, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-you-cant-say-anything-of-substance-on-this-board/979312/117 "2023-02-06T03:54:45Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Man, I can’t roll my eyes hard enough. This is absurd. …imagine declaring yourself as the arbiter of what is and isn’t a transgender issue. I wasn’t making a huge point here. Just that in some contexts (and you **used** those contexts in your response) it isn’t appropriate usage. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2023, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-you-cant-say-anything-of-substance-on-this-board/979312/118 "2023-02-06T03:57:56Z")
It’s just kind of silly though. Nobody brought up transgender anything, and here you are, proclaiming that it is, and that the rest of us can’t opine on it for some reason. Someone using “Dude” or “Man” in that gender-neutral way is fine. Full stop. There’s no gender assignation or anything like that going on. Getting offended by it is reading WAY too much into that usage. I agree that taking someone who’s transgender and deliberately misgendering them is wrong, and assholish, but that’s not what that’s doing. ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2023, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-you-cant-say-anything-of-substance-on-this-board/979312/119 "2023-02-06T04:00:07Z")
Back to the kerfluffle that caused this thread and the prior one. If someone indicates you’ve misgendered them, apologize and correct your behavior. If you _think_ someone is at risk of misgendering someone, a private note is appropriate, but making it non-confrontational is best. Joking about who is/should be upset about being misgendered, or offended about using a gender-specific term when they may not be part of that group is probably best avoided. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2023, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-you-cant-say-anything-of-substance-on-this-board/979312/120 "2023-02-06T04:10:05Z")
> [@bump](#): > > It’s just kind of silly though. Nobody brought up transgender anything, and here you are, proclaiming that it is, and that the rest of us can’t opine on it for some reason. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …no, it largely is not. It can be situational, dependent on context, dependent on where you live, on who you are addressing. Calling a trans woman a “dude”, for example, is typically not appropriate. …I didn’t “proclaim it as a trangender issue.” I initially used it as an example of when it typically isn’t appropriate, and when told that it “wasn’t a transgender issue” I responded with: > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Well it is, and I’ve made that mistake in real life and was told in no uncertain terms to “cut it out.” It is an issue. It’s one of many different reasons why using the word “dude” isn’t appropriate. But it isn’t the only one. And I never intended to make a big deal out of it. What I’m suggesting is that no, you don’t get to opine that this isn’t an issue for transgender people. For some (especially in the circles I mix with) moving from gender specific language when describing to a group to more inclusive language is something that is important to them. A life-long history of having those words used to _denigrate_ them is something I don’t think we should be ignoring. So no, you don’t have the right to declare that: > [@bump](#): > > Someone using “Dude” or “Man” in that gender-neutral way is fine. Full stop. You are entitled to your opinion. But if a trans person asks me, in any context, to not use the word “dude” or “men” or “guys” to describe them, then it hurts nobody to simply abide. > [@bump](#): > > Getting offended by it is reading WAY too much into that usage. Getting offended by anything I’ve suggested here is reading WAY much into anything I’ve said. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-you-cant-say-anything-of-substance-on-this-board/979312.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debate-you-cant-say-anything-of-substance-on-this-board/979312.md?page=7)