# Debates and Dubya **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 4, 2000, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debates-and-dubya/31984 "2000-09-04T18:05:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![jcgmoi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a9adbd/32.png) [@jcgmoi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jcgmoi)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2000, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debates-and-dubya/31984/21 "2000-09-06T01:36:17Z")
**Arnold** : The originally proposed debates would take place on a TV set nestled within an audience of several thousand. Bush’s choice is to do away with the audience. Also, one debate would require candidates to speak behind a rostrum. Bush is apparently more comfortable sitting. I think some Gore detractors are missing a point. Gore appears ready to accept debating on _Meet the Press_ and schmoozing with Larry King; he just wants Bush to agree to the debates scheduled by the (non-partisan) Commission on Presidential Debates. For a take on how Bush’s actions are affecting one discarded debate site, see [this Reuters story.](http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20000905/pl/bush_debate_dc_1.html) ---
**Author:** ![JosephFinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/3bc359/32.png) [@JosephFinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JosephFinn)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2000, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debates-and-dubya/31984/22 "2000-09-06T01:39:47Z")
There is some missing of a major point here. Gore did not agree to a Bush proposal for a debate because Bush has not proposed a debate. Instead, he suggested that he and Gore appear together on a talk show. That is not a moderated debate; it’s a jabbering head show. A debate is the traditional format, with moderators, questions, the usual. There is a reason that the other networks declined to carry the “Larry King” appearance idea: why promote another networks’ talk show? Let 'em debate, then they’ll show it. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2000, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debates-and-dubya/31984/23 "2000-09-06T01:45:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by divemaster \* > Let me get this straight. If Gore wants to arrange a debating itenerary that accentuates his positive points, that’s okay. This is what _I_ don’t understand? How has Gore “arranged” a debating itinerary that was prescribed by a bipartisan commission, and that’s been the normal debating format for the last several presidential elections? Help me out, **divemaster**. ---
**Author:** ![PowerpuffKue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f05b48/32.png) [@PowerpuffKue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PowerpuffKue)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2000, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debates-and-dubya/31984/24 "2000-09-06T05:41:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jmullaney \* > \*\*If I were Bush, I’d agree to debate Nader and _then_ aks Gore if he’d care to join the fun. I’d like to see Gore weasel out of that one. \*\* Maybe Gore should debate Buchanan and ask Bush in on the fun too. ---
**Author:** ![divemaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/divemaster/32/78_2.png) [@divemaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/divemaster)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2000, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debates-and-dubya/31984/25 "2000-09-06T12:29:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gadarene \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by divemaster \* > > Let me get this straight. If Gore wants to arrange a debating itenerary that accentuates his positive points, that’s okay. > > This is what _I_ don’t understand? How has Gore “arranged” a debating itinerary that was prescribed by a bipartisan commission, and that’s been the normal debating format for the last several presidential elections? Help me out, **divemaster**. \*\* I don’t mean “arranged” in the sense that Gore came up the idea all by himself. I mean arranged in the political strategy sense. There’s no law that says any particular debate format must be followed. Bush obviously feels it is in his best interest to accept one of the typical debates, and branch out to other fora. One can hardly fault a politician for looking out for his best interests. Gore would have more of a point if he wasn’t the one who agreed to debate in any and all other formats in the first place. When Bush called him on it, now Gore decides to squawk? ---
**Author:** ![beakerxf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc79bd/32.png) [@beakerxf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beakerxf)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2000, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debates-and-dubya/31984/26 "2000-09-06T13:08:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by threemae \* > This myth of “Dubya” being an idiot is sort of getting annoying. Didn’t they both go to the same school and id not GWB actually do better from an accademic standpoint. I thought Bush received a C+ average. Gore managed to do worse than that? ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2000, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debates-and-dubya/31984/27 "2000-09-06T13:39:00Z")
As I recall, they both did about the same academically. I don’t think either one of them managed a B average. I’m not sure, though. ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2000, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debates-and-dubya/31984/28 "2000-09-06T15:25:18Z")
One factor being left out of all this analysis is that Bush is not being hurt by the lowered expectations of him in these debates. If he can merely break even with Gore, it will be construed as a huge victory. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2000, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debates-and-dubya/31984/29 "2000-09-06T15:43:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by IzzyR \* > If he can merely break even with Gore, it will be construed as a huge victory. Which is pretty disturbing, if you think about it. ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2000, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debates-and-dubya/31984/30 "2000-09-06T16:05:54Z")
Not to me, it isn’t. Anything that helps out my man Bush. I think the debates are silly anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2000, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debates-and-dubya/31984/31 "2000-09-06T16:29:56Z")
> [@](#): > > Not to me, it isn’t. Anything that helps out my man Bush. Good grief; ideologue much? That’s even _more_ disturbing, **Izzy** –I thought you conservative-types liked to accuse the _liberals_ of thinking that the end justified the means. So if Gore wins, would you support a coup attempt? (Not necessarily a facetious question–it was [tried](http://members.tripod.com/~american_almanac/morgan4.htm) during the Roosevelt administration) > [@](#): > > I think the debates are silly anyway. Right, because it doesn’t matter how much our new president can understand and articulate his policy goals in the face of inquiry. O-kay. ---
**Author:** ![Phil\_15](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Phil\_15](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phil_15)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2000, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debates-and-dubya/31984/32 "2000-09-06T16:37:58Z")
> [@](#): > > Gadarene > quote: > > ``` > Originally posted by IzzyR > If he can merely break even with Gore, it will be construed as a huge victory. > > Which is pretty disturbing, if you think about it. > > ``` It’s only disturbing if you believe the ability to quickly recite/quote numbers, statistics, and sharp retorts are the only signs of a good leader. Frankly, I would rather have someone who maybe ponderes thoughtfully, seeks qualified outside guidance, crosses polictical and cultural differences to gain concensus, and once upon deciding his position on an issue doesn’t change at the slightest shift of public opinion. These are the characteristics I like about Bush (my vision of a strong leader). I am not at all sure that the debates will allow this to be shown to the American public given that Gore is considered to be a strong debater. My perception of Gore is that he will use whatever the polls say his position should be and then “reinvents” himself to say whatever the majority seems to want to hear AT THAT TIME. IMHO this indicates that Gore is a perfect follower (of the masses) rather than a leader. I would prefer to vote for someone who even though I disagree with them on some issues, will not suddenly change their position on the public whim. ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2000, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debates-and-dubya/31984/33 "2000-09-06T16:54:44Z")
**Gadarene** > [@](#): > > ideologue much? Yes, quite alot. > [@](#): > > I thought you conservative-types liked to accuse the liberals of thinking that the end justified the means. > > So if Gore wins, would you support a coup attempt? Is this supposed to follow in some way from thinking debates are silly? Or, put more succinctly, huh? ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2000, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debates-and-dubya/31984/34 "2000-09-06T17:14:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by divemaster \* > There’s no law that says any particular debate format must be followed. Bush obviously feels it is in his best interest to accept one of the typical debates, and branch out to other fora. One can hardly fault a politician for looking out for his best interests. I don’t fault a politician for looking out for his best interests. But I am interested in trying to understand the motive that determines what the politician thinks his best interests are. If someone told me “Politician A thinks it’s in her best interest not to participate in debates, but go to talk shows instead”, I would, as a voter, ask my self “Why does the politician not want to debate? Is it because a close examination of her ideas would reveal flaws, or points that would be unpopular with the public? Is it because the candidate does not have a firm grasp of the issues? Is it because the candidate has a physical disability that prevents her from standing for more than an hour behind a rostrum?” etc… ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2000, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debates-and-dubya/31984/35 "2000-09-06T17:18:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by IzzyR \* > **Gadarene** > > > [@](#): > > > > I thought you conservative-types liked to accuse the liberals of thinking that the end justified the means. > > > > So if Gore wins, would you support a coup attempt? > > Is this supposed to follow in some way from thinking debates are silly? Or, put more succinctly, huh? Hey, **Iz**? That’s supposed to follow from the thing I quoted _right above it_: “Not to me it isn’t. Anything that helps out my man Bush.” Ends: helping out your man Bush. Means: anything, apparently. Implication: relatively obvious. Natural follow-up question: If Bush fails to gain office through traditional democratic means, would you favor an alternative method such as a coup? What if the election were really, really close? What if Bush won the popular vote but lost in the electoral college? Hey, remember: “Anything that helps out my man Bush.” Honestly, it’s thinking like that which makes me understand the Liberal Media thread a _hell_ of a lot better. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2000, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debates-and-dubya/31984/36 "2000-09-06T17:21:53Z")
The only interesting part is watching the national media attempt to put the blame for Gore weaselling out of a publicly stated commitment onto Bush. And I don’t believe Bush wants Larry King because of lower ratings. It’s because the informal format makes Gore look like the sock puppet he is. And by all means put Nader into the debates. Just something else for Gore to back out of. ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2000, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debates-and-dubya/31984/37 "2000-09-06T17:32:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gadarene \* > **Ends: helping out your man Bush. Means: anything, apparently. Implication: relatively obvious.** Is it really so obvious? Honestly, it’s difficult to reconcile the image of the man who posted an intelligent analysis of Supreme Court nominees with this sort of silliness. Ideologue much? ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2000, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debates-and-dubya/31984/38 "2000-09-06T17:38:38Z")
Fine, **Izzy** –what did you mean by “Anything that helps out my man Bush?” Explain, please. What I hear you saying is that if the traditional format of debates will make Bush look bad, then he shouldn’t participate in the traditional debates. If a debating tie will be perceived as a substantial Bush win, it doesn’t matter what that says about Bush’s relative ability to govern or about the state of the media; all that matters is that it’s helping Bush to win. How am I misrepresenting your views, and how does that _not_ equate to the means justifying the end? ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2000, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debates-and-dubya/31984/39 "2000-09-06T17:40:30Z")
> [@](#): > > Honestly, it’s difficult to reconcile the image of the man who posted an intelligent analysis of Supreme Court nominees with this sort of silliness. Thank you, by the way, for the compliment. I worked a long time on that post. 🙂 Too bad **astorian** hasn’t seen fit to comment on it, considering that it contradicted much of what he said in his original post. Oh, well. ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2000, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debates-and-dubya/31984/40 "2000-09-06T17:58:37Z")
**Gadarene,** I was commenting on the **foolishness** inherent in having a draw be perceived as a Bush win. You found that disturbing. I don’t. Suppose masses of people would suddenly become convinced that electing Bush would make their houseplants grow better, and that this overriding concern would give him a big push in the polls. I would welcome this silliness too. I would rather have the guy win on his merits, but I’ll take a foolish win over an intelligent loss. This has nothing to do with what actions I would advocate to insure a Bush win. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debates-and-dubya/31984.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debates-and-dubya/31984.md?page=3)