# Debating the Pit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 1, 2001, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debating-the-pit/52684 "2001-02-01T05:07:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2001, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debating-the-pit/52684/21 "2001-02-01T19:43:13Z")
Since I think this is aimed at least in part at me, I wil respond: > [@](#): > > I read that thread, and the thread which was offered as evidence of TR’s supposed assholian behavior, and found myself completely stumped. I could not figure out what in the world he did to justify having things like this said to him and about him: . . .you act like a dickhead; You have an unpleasant tendency to be a sarcastic ass; lacks your unique brand of asshole-ism. I edited your list to limit it to the comments made by me, which I defend as follows: I think he acted like a dickhead and an ass in the thread in question. And I furthermore think that anyone reading that thread could pretty easily figure out “what in the world he did” to justify my opinion of him, regardless of whether they agreed with it or not. I am not saying that I _always_ find THE RYAN to be an ass, as if I’ve been waiting in the weeds for a chance to attack him; in fact, I don’t recall having much awareness of him as a poster at all until that thread. But I _did_ think he was being an ass in that thread, and I did not (and do not) think I was out of line to say so in the appropriate forum, the Pit. A lot has been made of the Pit thread being a “witch hunt,” as if we all got together via e-mail before hand to barbecue one particular poster. Of course, this didn’t happen. I am responsible only for what I say, not for what anyone else might say, and I am not responsible for anyone who chooses to “pile on him” or to offer gratuituous insults in the gleeful spirit of kicking someone when he’s down. That was certainly not what motivated me, seeing that I had a legitimate (if relatively minor) complaint regarding his behavior. > [@](#): > > This is just the latest of many such vicious threads. I can’t remember the last time a thread like this was not active in the pit. Don’t you people who jump right in and start ripping people apart because they tick you off ever stop and think about what the hell it is you’re doing? Yes, actually I do. I react on this message board precisely how I react in real life, no better and no worse. I do not put up with people who are rudely sarcastic to me, and if they persist, I walk away. Then, if someone later says, “boy, that person’s a jerk!” I may well exercise my right to agree wholeheartedly. > [@](#): > > Are you under the perfectly bizarre impression that you are in any position whatsoever to be judging others? “Perfectly bizarre”? This makes me a tad impatient. If someone (not THE RYAN) is being an asshole, I think people have every right to think and to say “that person is being an asshole.” I have no time for the “sure, I may think he’s an asshole, but I won’t say so because maybe he’s not _really_ an asshole, and who am I to judge?” school of thought. We are _all_ in the position to judge whether the behavior of others is acceptable or not, and we all have the equal right to say so. > [@](#): > > Does this sort of thing just puff you up with pride? “heheheh…I called some guy a shithead today! I’m pretty neat!” No, but then neither to I think I am constrained to deem a shithead as big as all outdoors to be something _less_ than a shithead. > [@](#): > > What is with this mob mentality? “He is irritating! Stone him !” WTF? Again, as far as I am concerned, there is no “mob mentality.” I do not post gratuitiously in the Pit; I do not attack people without reason (dubious though it may seem to some); and I do not “pile on” for the thrill of piling on. Maybe I should not post if it appears a thread is _becoming_ a lynching, but as the second poster to the Pit thread in question, it certainly didn’t look like that when I joined. > [@](#): > > So then we get this feeble, perfectly ridiculous excuse: “It’s the pit, it’s designed for that!” – Cool, we have a special place where we go to lynch people who annoy us! Again, there was no “lynching” as far as I was concerned. I think it is perfectly appropriate to have a forum where people who act like jerks can be called on it. If you have some evidence that I, or any other posters, have maliciously plotted to “lynch” anyone, then I’d like to see it. > [@](#): > > Interestingly, if I suddenly learned that there was a special block in my neighborhood where I could go kick the shit out of someone I didn’t like with impunity, I still wouldn’t do it! Why not? Because it violates my personal code of behavior. You all have one of those, doncha? Mine doesn’t change just because I see an opening where I can get away with something. I don’t steal because stealing is wrong and to do so would violate my code of behavior. I wouldn’t start stealing if I found a way I could get away with it. Would you? Do you ever lose your temper? What if you were told “don’t lose your temper in here;” if you want to carry on an acrimonious exchange, take it outside. Do you think you’d ever step outside? That’s the obvious analogy, not stealing or assaulting people, which make it appear as if the attack on THE RYAN was totally unprovoked, unjustified, and gratuitious. It wasn’t. > [@](#): > > This is not about reaching people with your critique of their behavior, it is about dumping on them. Newsflash: people calling you an asshole and a dickwad, or in my own case, a cunt, are not people you will be inclined to pay much attention to, particularly if the people who talk to you this way are claiming that you are behaving badly… Such people are obviously not offering anything resembling constructive criticism, they are behaving as badly, or usually, far worse than they are accusing the victim of behaving. I absolutely agree with this. I can hardly argue with it. Just because I have my behavior has been less than ideal does not mean I don’t recognize that it has been less than ideal, and can be criticized – not because calling someone a dickhead constitutes lynching him, but because it’s juvenile and counter-productive. > [@](#): > > The sad fact is that some people are indeed, far more annoying than others. How is that an excuse to behave badly yourself? It can provide a reason for bad behavior, but not an excuse. Whether the degree of bad behavior is justified by whatever insult or idiocy or irrationality triggered it is of course up to each reader to decide. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2001, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debating-the-pit/52684/22 "2001-02-01T19:43:20Z")
I was gonna post a reply of length, but Spiritus said it perfectly. That Pit thread confirmed my suspicians, as it incluided links to other threads where TR had done the same thing. It saved me wasting any more time with the guy. I’ve been beaten up in the pit before, even deservedly. The criticisms expressed made me examine my motivations and the the image I was portraying. I thought about it carefully, and changed my behavior. Now I’m only part asshole. Unfortunately The Ryan is full and complete in this regard, and seemingly unrepentent. Hopefully he will take heed. I as well stand by my actions. BTW. Spiritus Mundi is about as even and tolerant as they come. I take it as an article of faith that if he’s pissed off, then The Ryan is well deserving of all the approbrium, scorn and contempt that gets thrown at him. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2001, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debating-the-pit/52684/23 "2001-02-01T19:49:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by oldscratch \* > Why do you think there must be a mob mentality? Just because 20 individual posters dislike someone they’re a mob? No. And when 20 separate people IRL don’t like someone, they’re not a mob, either. But when they come together and heighten each other’s reactions against the person they all dislike - and when they get sufficiently carried up in the emotion of the group that they say and do things that they would be much less likely to do as individuals - then it’s a mob, IRL or on a MB. > [@](#): > > That’s you. Having had to deal with him for a while, and having had to deal with his side tracking of debates while he was arguing against me, and sidetracking debate while he was “on my side” of the argument, I could. My main argument against him is he, seemingly deliberlitely, pretends to not understand words or concepts. Stupid little things that he does over and over. I’ve been in a lot of threads with The Ryan, and while I agree that there’s little to admire in his debating style, I can’t see how the comments Stoid cited in her OP are justified in the least. They certainly won’t show him the error of his ways; they’ll just show him that if 20 people are going to jump on one poster, it’s preferable to be among the 20. Since this board is about fighting ignorance, that doesn’t seem to be a very valuable lesson; we all figured that one out in childhood. And while his posts may often be an impediment in that fight, retaliating in an even more ignorant manner won’t amount to progress. * * * Getting back to the global issues raised by the OP, we know that The Pit is the forum for personal comments of an unflattering nature, among other things. But IMO, we shouldn’t be checking our ‘fighting ignorance’ hats at the door. If we’re going to rip somebody a new asshole, the least we can do is to do it with clarity and incisiveness - so that if the person on the receiving end of our hostility has brain cells to rub together, they should at least come away with (a) a clear idea of what statements or conduct earned him this invective, (b) how that differs from similar behavior that, in the flamer’s opinion, doesn’t cross the threshold of Pit-worthiness, and © how to avoid such behavior in the future. If you’re gonna call someone a hyena-felching bag of putrescent goat shit, you at least ought to give them the wherewithal to figure out why. That’s my 2¢, and I’m sticking with it. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2001, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debating-the-pit/52684/24 "2001-02-01T20:07:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by oldscratch \* > \*\* > I’m sorry. I didn’t notice this request. And looking back, I still don’t. Could you point out where you said this? I can’t garauntee that I would have honored it, but I might have. \*\* > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ME \* > **can we all agree not to make this about whether The Ryan** or pldennison or danielinthewolvesden or Brian Bunnyhurt or Wildest Bill or Welfy or Asmodean or grienspace or jmullany or Scylla or JohnCorrado or Esprix or Wring or Yosemitebabe or Diane or Me or who the hell ever is getting under your skin at the moment **is in fact annoying or irritating or obnoxious or stupid** or whatever, since it is almost certainly true that we all are some of the time to some people. The sad fact is that some people are indeed, far more annoying than others. How is that an excuse to behave badly yourself? In other words: this is not about whether some people are obnoxious…they are. This is about how we choose to behave in response to their obnoxiousness. Better? Worse? Same? To make it about the other person’s failings is to essentially say “but so and so MADE me act that way” which is patently untrue. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Absolutely. My behavior, and how I treat people depends on how they act. \*\* Certainly, in that you will go into your repertoire of behaviors and choose one in response to how they act. My question is simply: is the one you chose one that you normally choose? Is it one you are proud to have chosen? Is it the behavior you wish to continue? The behavior you teach your children? Is it the behavior you think is wisest? Most effective? Most enlightening? If your answer is yes…fine. I don’t agree, but that is a somewhat different discussion. \*\* > [@](#): > > Let me put it this way. Do you jaywalk? If you smoked pot, would you do it in front of a cop? In a movie? I wouldn’t. Just like you don’t have a problem with those actions, I don’t have a problem with my actions. I also don’t have a problem with driving drunk, as long as you do it in the middle of a farm field with no one else around, with shooting guns, as long as they are fired to save lives, with all sorts of other actions that could be considered inapropriate, immoral, wrong in certain situations, but in the right time and place, no one would criticize you over. (ok some would, but I’d disagree with them) \*\* Hmmm. I’m still not entirely certain I’m getting your point. There are a few actions I undertake which are not legal. That has no bearing on whether I feel they should or should not be. That is the first factor in determining whether I will actually do them. Other factors certainly come into play when considering what my next move will be, but it always starts with me running it past my internal cop, checking the Stoidal Code of Conduct. If it conforms to the Code, I will then check external factors…are there caps around? Is it illegal? Well, then maybe I won’t be doing it. I think what you are saying, if I’m not mistaken, that the very existence of the Pit makes being shitty to people ok, because it was designed for it. You are also the guy who would go beat up someone if he could get away with it. Again…that’s fine if that is who you are and you are good with it. I disagree with it, but I’m not taking that question up. If you feel good about your behavior, that’s great. I brought all this up because I felt, and I think it’s been proven true, that if some people stopped to examine it a bit more closely, they would find that they did not feel particularly uplifted by their own behavior in these situations, and that it was not in fact the way they wished to behave. Of course, the next debate really is: is it ok to be shitty to people? To beat them up if you can get away with it? Why are we good? Which brings us to RELIGION AND THE NATURE OF PERSONAL MORALITY…dum dum dum dum… But I’m tuckered out…anyone else wanna start it? Stoid ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2001, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debating-the-pit/52684/25 "2001-02-01T20:21:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > \*\*Ibut Spiritus said it perfectly. > I as well stand by my actions. > > BTW. Spiritus Mundi is about as even and tolerant as they come. > > I take it as an article of faith that if he’s pissed off, then The Ryan is well deserving of all the approbrium, scorn and contempt that gets thrown at him. \*\* 😕 😕 😕 I am SO confused… Spiritus Mundi has said this in this thread: > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Esteemed Spiritus Mundi \* \*\* > Good OP. > Good responses. > Good position by a board administrator. > > Your Doper friend was right, Stoid. This thread definitely did not belong in the PIT. > AND > _sigh_ > > Damn, Gaudere. > > You just killed my street cred. _snif_ > > Now I gotta cap someone. > \*\* What in heaven’s name are you referring to??? ---
**Author:** ![Spiritus\_Mundi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c68b51/32.png) [@Spiritus\_Mundi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiritus_Mundi)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2001, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debating-the-pit/52684/26 "2001-02-01T20:24:52Z")
> [@](#): > > I take it as an article of faith that if he’s pissed off, then The Ryan is well deserving of all the approbrium, scorn and contempt that gets thrown at him. I did, many months ago, have a heated exchange with TheRyan. I continue to find his attitude unnecessarily confrontational (though I can hardly criticize his style of quote-and-respond ;)). I do not particularly “like” TheRyan as a poster. I do not, however, hold him in contempt, and I did not participate in the PIT thread referenced. I thank you for the compliment, though. You are a most kind devourer of unwary sailors. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2001, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debating-the-pit/52684/27 "2001-02-01T20:36:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jodi \* > \*\* Do you ever lose your temper? What if you were told “don’t lose your temper in here;” if you want to carry on an acrimonious exchange, take it outside. Do you think you’d ever step outside? That’s the obvious analogy, not stealing or assaulting people, which make it appear as if the attack on THE RYAN was totally unprovoked, unjustified, and gratuitious. It wasn’t. \*\* A closer analogy would be telling the two fighting to step outside, and instead half the bar goes and they all pile on one guy. If these threads were just two people finishing up an acrimonious exchange, that would be one thing. But they aren’t. And we all know it. rarely is one of these bitch-threads started when it does not turn into a mob all dumping on one poster. As for “evidence of plotting”, I never claimed that, and that is generally not how mobs are formed. By the way…I almost never “lose my temper”, since you asked. I can become angry, certainly, but it is exceedingly rare for me to allow it to push me into doing something I would not do if I wasn’t so angry. Part of the Code. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2001, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debating-the-pit/52684/28 "2001-02-01T21:03:46Z")
I meant Dinsdale, not Spiritus Mundi. Ooops. I’m sorry Mr. Spiritus, but I’ll have to ask you to return that compliment, now. ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2001, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debating-the-pit/52684/29 "2001-02-01T21:44:22Z")
> [@](#): > > A closer analogy would be telling the two fighting to step outside, and instead half the bar goes and they all pile on one guy. That is not the fault of the guy who initially asked the jerk to step outside. > [@](#): > > If these threads were just two people finishing up an acrimonious exchange, that would be one thing. But there’s not way to limit message board threads to two people. Everyone who wants to post can do so. > [@](#): > > But they aren’t. And we all know it. rarely is one of these bitch-threads started when it does not turn into a mob all dumping on one poster. All I can say to this is that while I cannot promise not to participate in such a thread _early_, i.e., before it becomes a gratuitious thump-fest, I do not and will not participate in threads that start out as or become insulting free-for-alls. > [@](#): > > By the way…I almost never “lose my temper”, since you asked. I can become angry, certainly, but it is exceedingly rare for me to allow it to push me into doing something I would not do if I wasn’t so angry. Good for you. I’m not being sarcastic; I find that very admirable. Personally, I have a ferocious temper (which, oddly enough, was not even riled in the thread in question) and the only solace I can take is that it’s way better now than it used to be. ---
**Author:** ![Spiritus\_Mundi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c68b51/32.png) [@Spiritus\_Mundi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiritus_Mundi)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2001, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debating-the-pit/52684/30 "2001-02-01T22:01:59Z")
> [@](#): > > I’m sorry Mr. Spiritus, but I’ll have to ask you to return that compliment, now. Damn! First Gaudere, then Scylla. Even Stoid gave me a “You Suck” today. Did I miss another memo? Did someone declare “Bitch Slap Spiritus Day”? _sniff_ You’re just lucky this thread isn’t the PIT.[sup]1[/sup] [sub]1. This post contains iron and should not be consumed by those suffering from rare blood disorders or surplus literality.[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2001, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debating-the-pit/52684/31 "2001-02-01T22:20:25Z")
> [@](#): > > **Stoid** > Not everyone really does feel good about themselves after a pileup like that, and it is those people I hope to reach, and those people I hope are in the majority. If you feel good about your behavior, and you say that you do, then that’s all that counts. > > But I would like to point out that both of you, in your disagreements with me, made it about The Ryan’s behavior – exactly as I had asked you not to. What I am asking everyone to do is determine whether someone else’s behavior has anything to do with their own. The Ryan may indeed be in need of some constructive criticism. It is a virtual certainty that calling him names doesn’t qualify and merely lets you blow off steam at his (and ultimately perhaps your own) expense. Man. I don’t know about feeling “good about my behavior.” I sure don’t have any regrets. My posts in that thread were directed less at **TR** , than to the other people who were expressing their frustration at dealing with him. My impression is that **TR** is very capable of handling himself. And IMO his posts convey sufficient intelligence that the tone and phrasing of his remarks are not entirely accidental. My impression, which neither **TR** nor anyone else has disavowed me of, is that he posts in a manner calculated to piss other people off, and distract them from the matter at hand, while leaving himself an escape valve of saying, “Whoa! You misinterpreted mu innocent remarks.” His other techinique is to fragment your argument and then bury you with numerous minor criticisms, rather than acknowledging and addressing your central idea. I litigate against a few attorneys who do that. And once in a while they pull one over on a judge. But IMO that doesn’t mean theyy aren’t assholes in their approach. Apparently I am not the only one who feels this way about **TR**. If you followed any of the referenced threads, you might reasonably come to the conclusion that attempts to rationally point out deficiencies in his presentation were unlikely to have significant effect. I happen to believe that in certain cases, there is merit to venting steam. I thought that was a legitimate function of the Pit, whether the object of my anger was a stranger, an inanimate object, a corporation, an ex, or a fellow poster. Am I wrong? I also found it hard to participate in your thread without referring to **TR**. You are right IMO that the OP bears some responsibility concerning his thread. But he is not in all cases able to set down ironclad rules directing the way the topic must be discussed. I don’t think anyone huijacked your thread. But I think it is questionable to have a thread that was directly inspired by a particular situation, and discuss it with out mentioning the players in that situation. Perhaps I am limited by my inability to abstract - I dwell too much on the concrete and specific. Hey, I’ve never been accused of being a romantic. I personally don’t hang out in the Pit all that much, and don’t recall the last time I posted something intentionally insulting someone there. (I’m not saying I never have, I’m just saying I don’t think I do that much.) So, yeah, to paraphrase your question (and to echo **oldscratch** ), in this case someone else’s behavior had everything to do with mine. (_BTW, **scratchy one** , we’ve been agreeing way too much lately. Not sure which of us should feel worse about that!_) I would not have posted those posts, using the language I usd, if I had not felt strongly about what the individual had done. Nor would I have used the tone I did if my goal was to “educate” him. If you look at the thread I referenced, I did reply within the constraints of GD. And you know what? It was incredibly unsatisfying. I felt much better after calling this asshole what (IMO) he is in as many words. That was the decision that was right for ME. I will not criticize you (or start a thread in GD or the Pit) should you act upon whatever decision you consider best for **Stoid**. I consider the English language to be a wonderful thing, in all of its diversity. And for certain people and certain situations, I am unaware of a term I consider as appropriate or succinctly descriptive as “asshole.” Feel free to flex your own vocab in any direction that turns your crank. And if you seriously think the 20 or so of us ragging on **TR** in that particular Pit thread are somehow going to make a significant difference in how the thousands of other folk behave on the boards, I think you are mistaken. Finally, I disagree with your analogy of the bar beating. To me the gap between physical mob violence, and a few potty mouthed individuals on a message board is too great for me to mentally bridge. This is a wonderful message board. But it is only a message board. And it is not the “Tender moments” message board. To some extent (and yes, there ARE boundaries) you participate at your own risk. Damn. I’m rambling. **Scylla** , you better not be calling me “even and tolerant.” I’ll stand by and hear **SM** called that, but ME?! Actually, that’s probably why I got pissed. I try to conduct myself rather rationally and tolerantly and respectfully of others here. I usually temper my ad hominens unless I know an individual’s record, or someone I do not know is way out there. In this instance, I didn’t think I deserved such snottiness from **TR** in GD. And I was surprised how much it pissed me off, and how much it helped to state what I thought of him and to know others felt the same. But definitely not a biggie in the grand scheme of things. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2001, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debating-the-pit/52684/32 "2001-02-01T22:34:18Z")
> [@](#): > > Did I miss another memo? Did someone declare “Bitch Slap Spiritus Day”? ::xeno enters thread cautiously, looking to see if Gaudere has departed. runs over to Spiritus and delivers hearty bitch slap; runs out, cackling madly:: ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2001, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debating-the-pit/52684/33 "2001-02-01T23:41:22Z")
Dinsdale said: > [@](#): > > Scylla, you better not be calling me “even and tolerant.” I’ll stand by and hear SM called that, but ME?! Actually, that’s probably why I > got pissed. Fine. ::Takes compliment back:: Let’s just say that I strongly agreed with your P.O.V. in this, you rat bastard. Now I got this stupid compliment that’s been used twice laying around. What am I supposed to do with it? I guess I’ll just throw it back to Spiritus Mundi. He’s looking pretty pathetic lately. Here ya go. ::Tosses Spiritus used compliment from left hand:: That’s the last one of those I hand out, for a while. note: There is a high degree of facetiousness in the above. This note has been brought to you by Citizens Aiding the Literal Minded. See your local Congressman about funding C.A.L.M. ---
**Author:** ![SuaSponte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2001, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debating-the-pit/52684/34 "2001-02-02T00:06:04Z")
Several months ago, I got into one of my first heated GD threads. The party with whom I debated insulted me, I got pissed and insulted him back. **David B.** intervened, gave us both warnings, and said “Knock if off, or take it to the Pit.” In that case, we both cooled off and apologized to each other. But the Pit has a real purpose. It’s not a place where the rules of civil discourse don’t apply - it’s a recognition that we, as fallible humans, don’t always obey those rules. Given that we are not going to always obey those rules, you could either (a)have it out in whatever thread started the problem, thus effectively ending the debate and ruining the enjoyment of people who were actually interested in the debate in the first place, or you could (b) … take it to the Pit. I have real example of this. In the current Mormon thread, **Bunnyhurt** and I were going at it for a while. I was trying hard not to be insulting, but we were talking about things not related to Mormonism. I (belatedly) recognized that I was disrupting the ongoing discussion, so I walked away. Now, that thread is again talking about Mormons. I could walk away without starting a Pit thread because I had no emotional investment in the discussion. If I had, I’m not sure that I would have had the personal strength to let it alone – unless I had a place like the Pit to vent. As for your second point, the “piling-on” phenomenon, you may very well be right. I don’t know what to think about that you, so “no comment”. Sua ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2001, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debating-the-pit/52684/35 "2001-02-02T14:53:18Z")
As for the piling on? C’mon. Read some Pit threads end to end, it happens more frequently as the months wear on. I didn’t flame an enormously popular member of the community for the sole purpoise of finding out what a pile-on really is. However, I did get to taste it first hand. **Stoid** , I agree with your O.P. wholeheartedly. There is clearly a schism here. There are those who might attempt to engage is vigorous discourse without resorting to verbal assualt, and those who find verbal assault to be an activity that somehow confirms their self-image as a powerful being. Striking out at someone here is very safe. Calling someone- NOT their ideas, but a person- any manner of crude thing is I suppose empowering if you have nothing more concrete in your life that empowers you. I really went after a Member here in a flame, and yet not once did I use offensive language in addressing my complaints ( unstable as they may have been). I grew up in a household where the written word was God. My father was a newspaperman, and my mom was a teacher. You want to flame and assault people, just because you \*\* CAN ??\*\*. Go for it, that’s what the Pit is for, it seems. But never think that you’re gaining anything in a community of articulate and passionate thinkers by calling someone a “dumbfuck”, or a “cunt”. Just because some posters here read “The Fountainhead” and decided to make it their personal Bible, doesn’t mean that everyone else has their own arrogantly, violently abusive personal moral code that permits them to operate in the real world by a different set of values. Objectivism is an interesting personal creed in theory, but in practice, it’s amoral and horrific in the extreme. The kind of group pile-ons that are now commonplace here smack of Objectivism. I find it pitiful. And no way, don’t close the Pit. Thank god this place exists, twisted as it usually is. It operates almost word for word as the designers intended. It’s the place to go to blow off steam and rant. It’s the group dynamics that many find so horrific, and so many others find intoxicating, that seems to cross the line. Even here in Sin Central. Cartooniverse ---
**Author:** ![Freedom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Freedom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freedom)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2001, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debating-the-pit/52684/36 "2001-02-02T16:31:40Z")
How the HELL did you know I was reading Fountainhead? ::man that was weird:: However, I also think the personal relationships expressed in Rand’s books are the weakest and most worthless points she has. (besides the anti-God thing she has going on) /hijack [sub]sorry but that was very strange[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2001, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debating-the-pit/52684/37 "2001-02-02T19:38:21Z")
We watch. We listen. We take copious notes. 🙂 Cartooniverse ---
**Author:** ![Bawdysurfer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90db22/32.png) [@Bawdysurfer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bawdysurfer)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2001, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debating-the-pit/52684/38 "2001-02-03T10:20:15Z")
[sup]ominous clouds[/sup][sub]descriptive terminology[/sub] _ **Message Board Eviscerati Syndrome** _ [sub]end terminology[/sub][sup]roll back clouds[/sup] ---
**Author:** ![Nacho4Sara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Nacho4Sara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nacho4Sara)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2001, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debating-the-pit/52684/39 "2001-02-03T21:26:22Z")
I have to agree with **Stoid** here. She’s succinctly said what I’ve been thinking for a few months. > [@](#): > > and those who find verbal assault to be an activity that somehow confirms their self-image as a powerful being. I think this is what it comes down to. I know there are posters who flame others with real reason. But too often I do see “witch-hunts” - it’s as if certain posters actively seek out things that they can challenge a poster on, and then drag it kicking and screaming to the Pit. This is discouraging behavior. It’s nonsensical, and I can’t think of anything good coming of it. If one person attacks a poster, and then twenty more people jump on the bandwagon and make outrageouly insulting claims, what do you think will happen? If someone did that to me, and the mob mentality (and I do see it as such) resulted, I’m afraid I would just leave. Calling me a “stupid cunt” is not a fortuitous way of getting me to change my behavior. If I’m out of line, I hope someone will point it out, or question it. But calling me names does nothing to change my opinions; it just pisses me off, and makes me think less of the name-caller. I have to align myself with Stoid here. I’m a peaceful person. I rarely resort to name-calling or personal attacks IRL or in the Pit, and I’m basically a nonviolent person. If there was a block in my neighborhood where I could kick some ass, I wouldn’t go near it. It’s NOT an effective way to solve a problem, and flies in the face of our purpose of fighting ignorance, AFAICS. It’s my code of behavior: I will not purposely belittle someone, or solve problems with violence, or be intentionally cruel without reason. And if others have different codes, then fine. But is it still impossible to treat posters with respect and decency? I think you can effectively solve a problem with another poster without calling them a dickhead, or an asshole, or a cunt. ---
**Author:** ![Pit\_Meister](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Pit\_Meister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pit_Meister)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2001, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debating-the-pit/52684/40 "2001-02-04T03:11:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Cartooniverse \* > \*\*We watch. We listen. We take copious notes. :)Cartooniverse \*\* [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debating-the-pit/52684.md?page=1)