# Debating with Americans. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 19, 2010, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debating-with-americans/539989 "2010-05-19T12:10:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![PsyXe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/54ee81/32.png) [@PsyXe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PsyXe)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debating-with-americans/539989/41 "2010-05-19T14:44:56Z")
Personally, when I read in someone’s argument that “whenever I tell the _truth_, They call me an anti-semite”, or “whenever I tell the _truth_, They call me a racist”, I know I can stop right there. ---
**Author:** ![Svejk\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea666f/32.png) [@Svejk\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svejk_1)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debating-with-americans/539989/42 "2010-05-19T14:46:26Z")
> [@Camus](#): > > I never said or suggested that the Dutch criminal system did not include the presumption of innocence. I never even mentioned Dutch courts or the inquisitorial system. I did not conflate the adversarial system with the presumption of innocence, but I apologize if I was unclear. I should have quoted rather than let you figure out what the hell I was on about. At any rate, this (my emphasis): > [@Camus](#): > > You’re actually highlighting one of the good things about the adversarial system, **along with the idea that a defendant is innocent until proven guilty.** suggested to me that you think this idea is somehow unique to the adversarial system of criminal prosecution. I realize now that that is clearly not what you think. ---
**Author:** ![llcoolbj77](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/eb9ed0/32.png) [@llcoolbj77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/llcoolbj77)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debating-with-americans/539989/43 "2010-05-19T14:50:14Z")
[quote=“BigT, post:21, topic:539989”] I have seen what they are talking about in the court system. I just found out recently here that, even if a criminal confesses to a crime to their lawyer, the lawyer will still try to defend them. Apparently winning the case is more important than serving justice. Wrong wrong and wrong. If my client tells me his is guilty, do you really think I can walk into a Courtroom and put on evidence (that I know to be false), that my client was in Paris at the time??? Ridiculous. If my client tells me he did possess marijuana… well I can still challenge the probable cause of the officer’s stop, and the legality of the search and seizure. I can still force the prosecutor to prove the case. My client has the constitutional right to remain silent, challenge his accusors, and force the state to prove the case against him. If the state fails at that point, and the case has been dismissed, well then JUSTICE has been served!!! ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debating-with-americans/539989/44 "2010-05-19T14:52:16Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > I’ve no idea as I have just opened it myself when I Googled debating with Americans through sheer frustration here. > > I’ve no idea what it is about but noted it ended in .ca so thought that would be more acceptable than this regions sites. > > Maybe this was the wrong section. However taking your point truth in relation to biased arguers. > > Why is it that when you mention Iran and Israel so many posters will argue that Iran threatens to wipe Israel off the face of the earth or some other rubbish? > > Why do they refuse to accept what was actually said? Quite possibly because Iran has said they will do that. > [@](#): > > Iran Threatens Israel if U.S. Attacks > > By ALI AKBAR DAREINI > Associated Press Writer > > TEHRAN, Iran (AP) - A top Iranian Revolutionary Guards commander said Tuesday that Israel would be Iran’s first retaliatory target in response to any U.S. attack. > > ``We have announced that whenever America does make any mischief, the first place we target will be Israel,‘’ the Iranian Student News Agency quoted Gen. Mohammad Ebrahim Dehghani as saying. [http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article12914.htm](http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article12914.htm) > [@](#): > > IRAN THREATENS ISRAEL: WE’LL BLAST YOUR HEART OUT! > by Hillel Fendel ([IsraelNN.com](http://IsraelNN.com)) > > A high-ranking Iranian government official says Iran will respond to either an American or Israeli attack by “blowing up the heart of the State of Israel.” The spokesman is a representative of Ayatollah Khamenei, Iran’s highest spiritual leader, in the country’s most powerful military force, the Revolutionary Guard. > “Even if one Zionist or American rocket hits our land,” said Mojtaba Zolnour, “Iranian rockets will explode in the heart of Israel even before the dust settles.” He sounded the threat on Friday morning. [http://hftm.org/blog/?p=797](http://hftm.org/blog/?p=797) I can’t speak for you, but when I hear someone threatening to kill someone else, I tend to take it seriously. Especially when religious fanaticism enters the picture. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debating-with-americans/539989/45 "2010-05-19T14:55:39Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > _“Americans have a problem with the truth. They seem to be unable to accept it, which is difficult to understand at a time in history when knowledge plays a larger and larger role in determining human action. Recognition of this problem is widespread. Beliefs and lies somehow always overwhelm truth, even when they are so contradictory that any effective action becomes impossible. A kind of national, psychological paralysis occurs. Nothing can be done because one belief contradicts another, and for some unknown reason, the facts don’t matter. Even during those times when an overwhelming belief does compel action, Americans rush headlong into it neglecting the adage that headlong often means wrong.”_ > > _"Paul Craig Roberts writes, “Today Americans are ruled by propaganda. Americans have little regard for truth, little access to it, and little ability to recognize it. Truth is an unwelcome entity. It is disturbing. It is off limits. Those who speak it run the risk of being branded ‘anti-American,’ ‘anti-semite’ or ‘conspiracy theorist.’ Truth is an inconvenience for government and for the interest groups whose campaign contributions control government. Truth is an inconvenience for prosecutors who want convictions, not the discovery of innocence or guilt. Truth is inconvenient for ideologues.” Unfortunately he casts the blame on the characters of people: “economists sell their souls for filthy lucre. . . . medical doctors who, for money, have published in peer-reviewed journals concocted ‘studies’ that hype this or that new medicine produced by pharmaceutical companies that paid for the ‘studies. . . .’ Wherever one looks, truth has fallen to money.”_ > > _"Public policy based on mere beliefs or opinions sooner or later crashes headlong into the wall of reality causing disastrous consequences, for in the end, the truth cannot be denied. "_ > > [Knowledge, Truth and Human Action: America Hits the Wall - Global ResearchGlobal Research - Centre for Research on Globalization](http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=19190) > > Is this why people around the world find it so hard debating with Americans? Even the Canadians across the border? Unfortunately I tend to agree with you. Most Americans rely on the media to tell them what to think, or they rely on science, religion, or some other organization. There are not a lot of free thinkers, although everyone would claim the label. Skeptics are not really skeptics except in one narrow way. I don’t think a lot of the people claiming religion actually follow the core beliefs. But we are a young country compared to the rest of the world, and we will catch up in time on honoring truth, tested through experience, rather than what some authority tells us to think. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debating-with-americans/539989/46 "2010-05-19T16:17:27Z")
You start a debate based around assertions from a ludicrous website filled with lies and you’re accusing _Americans_ of being hard to debate with? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debating-with-americans/539989/47 "2010-05-19T16:40:30Z")
“Americans have a problem with the truth.” I expect every ethnic or national group in history has had someone say that about them. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debating-with-americans/539989/48 "2010-05-19T16:46:19Z")
You know, if every American disagrees with you about America, maybe you’re the one that’s wrong about America, not them. If you replaced “Americans” with “human beings”, maybe I’d agree. Also, if you get most of your information about America by watching American TV shows, maybe you should consider that these TV shows are what we in America call “fiction”. For instance, Vampires aren’t any more common in America than they are in China or the Netherlands, or Egypt, it’s just that you never see TV shows about Chinese vampires. Our vampire problem isn’t any worse than any other country, despite what you see. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debating-with-americans/539989/49 "2010-05-19T16:49:02Z")
Marge, there’s “the truth”…:(…and, “the truth!” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debating-with-americans/539989/50 "2010-05-19T16:57:15Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > For instance, Vampires aren’t any more common in America than they are in China or the Netherlands, or Egypt, it’s just that you never see TV shows about Chinese vampires. Our vampire problem isn’t any worse than any other country, despite what you see. Now I want to watch a movie about Chinese kung fu master vampires… ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debating-with-americans/539989/51 "2010-05-19T16:59:31Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I have seen what they are talking about in the court system. I just found out recently here that, even if a criminal confesses to a crime to their lawyer, the lawyer will still try to defend them. Apparently winning the case is more important than serving justice. > > I had heard that this was different in other western countries, but I admit I have almost no knowledge in that are. It’s not about winning the case. A defense attorney gets paid whether they win or lose. Someone who wants to win all their cases shouldn’t become a defense attorney, because most of their clients are going to be convicted. But a criminal defendent, even a guilty one, deserves a defense. If it violated a defense lawyer’s professional ethics to defend guilty people, then most of the people accused of crimes would have no one to help them defend themselves. The fact is, most of the people accused of crimes are guilty. Most, not all. The defense attorney’s job is to advocate for their client. It’s up to the judge and jury to decide what should happen to the defendant, not the attorney. If only innocent people deserved a defense, we’d have to have some sort of procedure to differentiate between the innocent people who deserve a defense, and the guilty people who don’t. Except we already have such a procedure, it’s called a trial. It is certainly true that a defense attorney has an ethical obligation to not allow perjury, or to say things they know to be untrue. If their client admits guilt privately, they can’t ethically argue to the jury that their client was in Paris at the time. But they certainly can argue against the foundation of the evidence that the prosecutor brings, and argue that the prosecutor hasn’t established guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. And the reason for this is not out of duty towards their scumbag client. It is irrelevant whether their client is a scumbag or not. The rest of us deserve to have a legal system where people can’t be sent to prison on the bare allegation of the state. The fact that most people alleged to be guilty by the prosecutor are in fact guilty is a consequence of the fact that they have to prove to a jury that the guilty are guilty. If they could just round up anyone they like, then we’d have a lot more innocent people in jail. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debating-with-americans/539989/52 "2010-05-19T17:05:41Z")
> [@Svejk\_1](#): > > **Willthekittensurvive** , I think that the US legal system is substantially different from the Dutch system in a number of crucial respects, including (this is why it is far more political) the fact that key players in the US system are elected officials, whereas in the Netherlands, they are all appointed. Only sometimes. All federal prosecutors and judges are appointed by the president. (Their assistants are civil service employees.) Many state governments have elected prosecutors, others have appointed, some have a combination. Same with judges. _Law & Order_ is based on the New York state system, wherein district attorneys are elected officials. It’s worth noting that the guys who actually try most cases (the assistant district attorneys) are apolitical hires chosen by the DA. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debating-with-americans/539989/53 "2010-05-19T17:15:23Z")
> [@willthekittensurvive](#): > > I like Law and Order, and the Wire > From what I gather both shows try to portray the most realistic picture of the US legal system Seriously? _SERIOUSLY?_ ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debating-with-americans/539989/54 "2010-05-19T17:18:12Z")
> [@dangermom](#): > > Now I want to watch a movie about Chinese kung fu master vampires… [Ask, and ye shall receive.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApAUpmd4WNM&feature=related) ---
**Author:** ![Senlata](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/977dab/32.png) [@Senlata](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senlata)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debating-with-americans/539989/55 "2010-05-19T17:22:04Z")
Being an American I have a reason to say that debating with an American can be tiresome. It is just like debating with -most- Christians. We believe we are right and you are wrong no matter what evidence you bring before us. I should rephrase that seeing as I am not a Christian…however, the point is that yes that can be true and it is more true in the States. There are people all over the world that think they are right no matter what but most of them gather in the States. Maybe it is our lack of…I mean right to free speech. \>.\> ---
**Author:** ![Senlata](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/977dab/32.png) [@Senlata](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senlata)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debating-with-americans/539989/56 "2010-05-19T17:28:27Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > [Ask, and ye shall receive.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApAUpmd4WNM&feature=related) By the way Alessan that was the best vamp movie ever!!! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debating-with-americans/539989/57 "2010-05-19T17:28:47Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > Seriously? _SERIOUSLY?_ Yeah, I laughed when I saw that. Next he’ll be saying _The Hurt Locker_ is an accurate representation of war. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debating-with-americans/539989/58 "2010-05-19T17:35:35Z")
> [@Senlata](#): > > There are people all over the world that think they are right no matter what but most of them gather in the States. > > Maybe it is our lack of…I mean right to free speech. \>.\> What evidence do you have that Americans are more likely to be sure they’re right than people of other nationalities? It seems to me a pretty bold statement. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debating-with-americans/539989/59 "2010-05-19T18:02:26Z")
I kind of doubt that these alleged problems debating Americans come from the US media. We have (to say the least) quite an open media culture in the US, and indeed throughout much of the West. I would expect bad debaters to be found more in some ignorant, backwards hick country that [practiced censorship.](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/jun/09/internationaleducationnews.highereducation) How can anyone expect a country whose media [spreads nasty, hateful lies](http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/388.htm) not to be filled with idiot debaters? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debating-with-americans/539989/60 "2010-05-19T18:04:47Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > Is this why people around the world find it so hard debating with Americans? Even the Canadians across the border? Cuz we win. 🆒 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debating-with-americans/539989.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debating-with-americans/539989.md?page=4)