# Debating with Scientific Illiterates...
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debating-with-scientific-illiterates/601567
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [November 2, 2011, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debating-with-scientific-illiterates/601567 "2011-11-02T00:16:18Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)
#### Post date: [November 2, 2011, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debating-with-scientific-illiterates/601567/21 "2011-11-02T15:00:23Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#):
>
> Here’s what the real problem is:
>
> Science is **hard.** ☹
Is your science hard, or are you just glad to see me?
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### Author:  [@Kevbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kevbo)
#### Post date: [November 2, 2011, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debating-with-scientific-illiterates/601567/22 "2011-11-02T15:17:10Z")
What I have found is that many of these people place a great deal of importance in what they believe. It all starts with their beliefs, and facts are useful only to the extent that they confirm those beliefs.
And they will state this outright: For many, “I don’t believe in global warming.” is not a shorthand way of saying that they don’t accept the evidence, it is an admission that they think that their personal belief has a bearing on the matter. If more people would just join them in their belief, the problem would be solved…because that is what happens when you believe hard enough.
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### Author:  [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)
#### Post date: [November 2, 2011, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debating-with-scientific-illiterates/601567/23 "2011-11-02T15:55:41Z")
Like others have said, often people don’t have a handle on their own level of ignorance. It can be very frustrating trying to argue with someone who just won’t listen to anything that runs counter to their prejudices. Sometimes you just can’t get through to them at all, but it can be worthwhile to get your points across for the benefit of the peanut gallery.
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### Author:  [@Invisible\_Chimp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Invisible_Chimp)
#### Post date: [November 2, 2011, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debating-with-scientific-illiterates/601567/24 "2011-11-02T16:09:44Z")
[Arguments aren’t about what’s the truth, Facts don’t change opinions, etc.](http://www.cracked.com/article_19468_5-logical-fallacies-that-make-you-wrong-more-than-you-think.html)
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### Author:  [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)
#### Post date: [November 2, 2011, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debating-with-scientific-illiterates/601567/25 "2011-11-02T16:14:59Z")
Rather than getting stuck debating denialists and the arrogantly ignorant (yes, I know there’s overlap), the best strategy is to promote critical thinking before sloppiness becomes an ingrained trait, i.e. in childhood.
I’d have modules or even separate courses on how to evaluate scientific claims and fallacious debate tactics as early as 6th grade, with coursework to expand on these principles in high school and college. Homework could be as simple as citing a fallacy and asking students to find examples of it on the Internet. Students in high school and college are sophisticated enough to be taught the strengths and weaknesses of various kinds of research, from case reports to systematic reviews of scientific literature. The lessons they learn would also be applicable to other spheres, such as politics.
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### Author:  [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)
#### Post date: [November 2, 2011, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debating-with-scientific-illiterates/601567/26 "2011-11-02T16:24:36Z")
I have a couple friends I love dearly, but they believe HAARP is causing the earthquakes and storms we have been having lately ☹ not to mention they believe in all sorts of conspiracy theories. _sigh_
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### Author:  [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)
#### Post date: [November 2, 2011, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debating-with-scientific-illiterates/601567/27 "2011-11-02T17:16:39Z")
> [@aruvqan](#):
>
> I have a couple friends I love dearly, but they believe HAARP is causing the earthquakes and storms we have been having lately ☹
How, exactly, do they think a bunch of old people are causing earthquakes? :dubious:
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### Author:  [@Vihaga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vihaga)
#### Post date: [November 2, 2011, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debating-with-scientific-illiterates/601567/28 "2011-11-02T17:48:10Z")
> [@Darth\_Panda](#):
>
> **Debating with Scientific Illiterates…**
>
> Don’t.
>
> Next question?
Generally I stick with that, but I’ve had success with **phouka** ’s method, mostly by using extraordinarily roundabout arguments in convincing my mother of things.
I mostly ignore the anti-science people I come across, but I still get annoyed by people who make claims and cite reputable, peer-reviewed papers that do not say what they think they do. I’m not sure exactly how to go about convincing people that they really didn’t understand what they read, though.
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### Author:  [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)
#### Post date: [November 2, 2011, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debating-with-scientific-illiterates/601567/29 "2011-11-02T19:12:29Z")
> [@phouka](#):
>
> …Illogical Denial Person: . . . suspicious . . .
>
> Logical Person: I totally agree. Suspicious stuff is suspicious. But, remember that time it turned out that suspicious stuff was really totally okay?..
I’m cracking _up._
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### Author:  [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)
#### Post date: [November 2, 2011, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debating-with-scientific-illiterates/601567/30 "2011-11-02T19:40:25Z")
While I can’t argue about the huge volume of scientific ignorance out there, I think there is an even larger problem – language. You can see it everywhere on these boards – people arguing about two different things as if they are the same, and even if they eventually realize it, start arguing about the meaning of words rather than find a common vocabulary to advance the original discussion. Or – they insist on repeating their own points as if they address the issues raised by the other posters. It’s as if they’re just saying, “La la la…”.
This is generally not a problem of illiteracy or ignorance. It is a problem of… attitude, or stupidity, or maliciousness.
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### Author:  [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)
#### Post date: [November 2, 2011, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debating-with-scientific-illiterates/601567/31 "2011-11-02T21:47:46Z")
> [@phouka](#):
>
> . . . Illogical Denial Person: I’m scared! And angry! . . .
Conversing with scientific illiterates makes me scared and angry!
In another thread, I mentioned my cousin, who, upon seeing an illustration of the skeleton of a Kzinti – a fictional alien in a SF novel! – shrieked, “That’s evolution! I don’t believe in that!”
Back in my college days (I won’t say how long ago, but there have been many additions to the periodic table of the elements in the intervening years) many of my classmates fervently believed that men had one rib fewer than women. Any time they saw a mounted and wired skeleton in a biology lab, with all 24 ribs, they’d say, “Well, that one was obviously a woman.”
Trinopus (scared, angry, and a little nauseated…)
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### Author:  [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)
#### Post date: [November 2, 2011, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debating-with-scientific-illiterates/601567/32 "2011-11-02T22:08:47Z")
Naively I’d think the pig headed ignorant people should see science as some sort of true religion that mysteriously produces stunning magical artifacts. So if their priests decree something it must be true. Especially the older generations since they’ve been exposed to even more of its material advances.
I mean, how does it work in their heads? Just point to a computer, a cell phone, or pay money to step into a metal tube that flies across the world at several hundreds of miles an hour. Stupid compartmentalized brains…
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### Author:  [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)
#### Post date: [November 2, 2011, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debating-with-scientific-illiterates/601567/33 "2011-11-02T22:24:19Z")
> [@Invisible\_Chimp](#):
>
> [Arguments aren’t about what’s the truth, Facts don’t change opinions, etc.](http://www.cracked.com/article_19468_5-logical-fallacies-that-make-you-wrong-more-than-you-think.html)
Brilliant. Depressing, but brilliant.
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### Author:  [@mnemosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mnemosyne)
#### Post date: [November 2, 2011, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debating-with-scientific-illiterates/601567/34 "2011-11-02T23:10:21Z")
Something that I find myself thinking whenever I encounter these types of situations…
“Just because you’ve never heard of it does not mean that it doesn’t exist or that it isn’t true. Your inability to understand something does not mean someone else is unable to understand it; they likely are someone you should be listening to instead of dismissing when talking about this topic. Some things take more than a glance at wikipedia to truly understand. Likewise, just because you don’t deal with a particular concept in everyday life does not mean it isn’t useful.”
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### Author:  [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)
#### Post date: [November 3, 2011, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debating-with-scientific-illiterates/601567/35 "2011-11-03T02:57:39Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#):
>
> So recently on a different forum, I was having a debate on Near-Death Experiences and the soul. It was going pretty well until I started bringing up some of the science behind it; the underlying neuroscience and psychology that is directly related to the topic. The person I was debating with had no idea what I was talking about. He seemed to not even understand the concept of a nervous system, or how the body reacts to stimuli during sleep. He completely failed to understand fairly simply psychological concepts such as cold reading and Deja-Vus. And he insisted that they were beside the point when they _were_ the point.
>
> In other discussions on other forums, I have seen people debate about economics who think that it’s impossible for the government to create jobs through spending. I have seen people debate evolution and actually use the term “kind” without giving a definition for it. I have seen people debate vaccination without understanding what a problematic dosage of mercury is. I have seen people debate global warming without understanding how the greenhouse effect works or denying it outright. And slowly but surely, it’s pissing me off.
>
> Look, I know we can’t all be experts at everything. But if you’re coming into a topic, the _least_ that can be expected of you is a basic understanding of the topic at hand. _Especially_ if you’re going against the scientific grain, you need to understand what the hell you’re talking about. I don’t _care_ about your philosophical arguments in regards to the topic or the number of things that don’t add up; if you show off stunning ignorance in regards to the science involved and will wave off the opinions of the experts in the field due to this, _you’re an idiot_ and you have no place within the discussion. :mad:
I think I know that forum (not gonna name it). I saw that thead and said to myself,
“Self I’m not in the mood to feign interest in bullshit or walk on eggshells around the New Agers and “christian” believers or try to pretend I respect their crap” this time, fvck 'em".
It was probably a smart decision on my part.
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### Author:  [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)
#### Post date: [November 3, 2011, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debating-with-scientific-illiterates/601567/36 "2011-11-03T11:09:27Z")
> [@Darth\_Panda](#):
>
> How, exactly, do they think a bunch of old people are causing earthquakes? :dubious:
? [HAARP](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Frequency_Active_Auroral_Research_Program) is a research project shooting electricity skyward to study the effects in the electrical happenings in the various levels of the atmosphere [more or less]. How do you get old people out of High Frequency Active Auroral Research Program?
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### Author:  [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)
#### Post date: [November 3, 2011, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debating-with-scientific-illiterates/601567/37 "2011-11-03T11:22:06Z")
> [@aruvqan](#):
>
> ? [HAARP](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Frequency_Active_Auroral_Research_Program) is a research project shooting electricity skyward to study the effects in the electrical happenings in the various levels of the atmosphere [more or less]. How do you get old people out of High Frequency Active Auroral Research Program?
[(H)AARP](http://assets.aarp.org/www.aarp.org_/promotions/sem/member01.html?keycode=U8LXS5&packageid=&componentid=&whocalled=promo_enroll)
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### Author:  [@Cap\_n\_Obvious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cap_n_Obvious)
#### Post date: [November 3, 2011, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debating-with-scientific-illiterates/601567/38 "2011-11-03T12:06:40Z")
> [@Trinopus](#):
>
> Back in my college days (I won’t say how long ago, but there have been many additions to the periodic table of the elements in the intervening years) many of my classmates fervently believed that men had one rib fewer than women.
Back in the mid 80s I had a teacher that tried to teach us this. I wasn’t in a Christian school or anything like that either; this was a public county school.
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### Author:  [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)
#### Post date: [November 3, 2011, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debating-with-scientific-illiterates/601567/39 "2011-11-03T13:24:04Z")
> [@phouka](#):
>
> I feel you. I totally feel you.
>
> What I’ve learned, but haven’t mastered, is that there is a meta-debate going on, and if I can address that appropriately, sometimes, I can get the other person to consider the surface topic.
>
> The meta-debate usually goes something like this:
>
> Illogical Denial Person: I’m scared! And angry!
>
> Logical Person: Hey, I have facts for you! They are scary and will make you more angry!
>
> Illogical Denial Person: I’m really scared! And really angry!
>
> Logical Person: You make no sense! Facts are good! Now I am angry!
>
> Illogical Denial Person: SCARED! ANGRY!
>
> Logical Person: You have no facts! You are bad! I angry-hate you!
>
> Illogical Denial Person: FUCK YOU!
I love this. I am totally adopting “I angry-hate you!” as a catchphrase (I promise to try to only use it ironically)
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### Author:  [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)
#### Post date: [November 7, 2011, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debating-with-scientific-illiterates/601567/40 "2011-11-07T22:14:28Z")
You know what’s especially bad? Willfully ignorant right-wingers like **Clothahump** who act like they’re the smartest shits in the world in regards to economic policy, _but do not understand how governments can create wealth or demand_. But what’s worse than even the illiteracy is the _inevitable_ degree of superiority with which these posters post; as if anyone who doesn’t understand their blatantly false financial ideals is a fucking moron. No, that’s not true. Sorry. :mad:
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