# Debt ceiling fight practicalities
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debt-ceiling-fight-practicalities/977779
**Category:** Politics & Elections
**Created:** [January 6, 2023, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debt-ceiling-fight-practicalities/977779 "2023-01-06T10:12:54Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)
#### Post date: [January 6, 2023, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debt-ceiling-fight-practicalities/977779/1 "2023-01-06T10:12:54Z")
Okay, so from my understanding, the upcoming debt ceiling battle has much less to do with votes (as it requires just a majority), but in the ability of the House to vote for it in the first place, and I’m seeing contradictory info on that.
So how easy would it be for just a few members to keep the issue off the table for anything beyond the short term? What can be done to counter such efforts?
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### Author:  [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)
#### Post date: [January 6, 2023, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debt-ceiling-fight-practicalities/977779/2 "2023-01-06T11:49:19Z")
> **[Hastert Rule](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hastert_Rule)**
>
> The Hastert Rule, also known as the "majority of the majority" rule, is an informal governing principle used in the United States by Republican Speakers of the House of Representatives since the mid-1990s to maintain their speakerships and limit the power of the minority party to bring bills up for a vote on the floor of the House. Under the doctrine, the Speaker will not allow a floor vote on a bill unless a majority of the majority party supports the bill.
> Under House rules, the Speaker schedu...
So yes, in the House there is no filibuster, but the Speaker and leadership can limit what comes up for a vote at all based on the whims of their conference. A bill might pass easily with minority support + less than all of the majority, but will never get that vote.
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### Author:  [@flurb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flurb)
#### Post date: [January 6, 2023, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debt-ceiling-fight-practicalities/977779/3 "2023-01-06T14:57:08Z")
A couple points:
- When people say that the Speaker decides what comes to the floor, what they’re actually talking about is the House Rules Committee. This committee decides if and under what conditions a bill will be allowed to be considered on the floor (i.e. will amendments be allowed, how much debate will be allowed, etc.). Traditionally this committee has been stacked with the Speaker’s close allies so that he controls the process. But apparently one of the concessions McCarthy has made is to appoint Freedom Caucus members to the Rules Committee, which will likely undermine his ability to exert control on the House agenda.
- There is a process to bypass leadership and force a vote on the floor — t[he discharge petition](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discharge_petition). It requires an absolute majority (i.e. 218) of the chamber to sign the petition, which then requires that the bill to be “discharged” from committee and brought to the floor.
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### Author:  [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)
#### Post date: [January 6, 2023, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debt-ceiling-fight-practicalities/977779/4 "2023-01-06T14:59:34Z")
> [@flurb](#):
>
> But apparently one of the concessions McCarthy has made is to appoint Freedom Caucus members to the Rules Committee, which will likely undermine his ability to exert control on the House agenda.
But which will also allow the misleadingly-named “freedom caucus” to exert _more_ control over the process to their satisfaction regardless of how much that amounts to minority of the minority of the majority of the minority rule.
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### Author:  [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)
#### Post date: [January 13, 2023, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debt-ceiling-fight-practicalities/977779/5 "2023-01-13T18:20:50Z")
> **[U.S. will hit its debt limit Thursday, start taking steps to avoid default,...](https://www.cnbc.com/2023/01/13/us-will-hit-its-debt-limit-thursday-start-taking-steps-to-avoid-default-yellen-warns-congress.html)**
>
> Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen wrote House Speaker Kevin McCarthy, "It is unlikely that cash and extraordinary measures will be exhausted before early June."
With hitting the debt limit coming so soon I think it was very irresponsible for Biden and the Democrats to not raise or suspend the debt limit the last session.
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### Author:  [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)
#### Post date: [January 13, 2023, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debt-ceiling-fight-practicalities/977779/6 "2023-01-13T18:30:22Z")
> [@PastTense](#):
>
> With hitting the debt limit coming so soon I think it was very irresponsible for Biden and the Democrats to not raise or suspend the debt limit the last session.
Perhaps not. Republicans take control of the House, the first week is spent chaotically bickering about who will be Speaker. A couple of weeks later, more chaos and fears of government shutdown ensue. That’s not a good look for the Republicans, and it’s a hard sell to voters that the Dems are to blame.
So it might in fact be _easier_ to stop them playing these games (and thus better for the country, not just Dem votes) to have the issue come up immediately.
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### Author:  [@flurb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flurb)
#### Post date: [January 13, 2023, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debt-ceiling-fight-practicalities/977779/7 "2023-01-13T18:36:42Z")
> [@PastTense](#):
>
> With hitting the debt limit coming so soon I think it was very irresponsible for Biden and the Democrats to not raise or suspend the debt limit the last session.
It’s likely that Schumer knew he didn’t have the votes in the Senate to overcome a Republican filibuster on a debt limit extension.
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### Author:  [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)
#### Post date: [January 13, 2023, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debt-ceiling-fight-practicalities/977779/8 "2023-01-13T20:19:31Z")
At some point, we’re going to have to let the Crazy Wing of the GOP crash the economy, in a forlorn hope that this might finally teach them why playing chicken with crashing the economy is a bad idea.
Plus, it might convince their corporate donors to finally pull the plug on the crazy wing.
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### Author:  [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)
#### Post date: [January 13, 2023, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debt-ceiling-fight-practicalities/977779/9 "2023-01-13T20:41:45Z")
> [@flurb](#):
>
> It’s likely that Schumer knew he didn’t have the votes in the Senate to overcome a Republican filibuster on a debt limit extension.
Do you think that’s what it was? Then, how will he get the votes if the Republicans in the House can manage to pass something??
> [@Horatius](#):
>
> At some point, we’re going to have to let the Crazy Wing of the GOP crash the economy, in a forlorn hope that this might finally teach them why playing chicken with crashing the economy is a bad idea.
This is like “we had to destroy the village in order to save it”. If the US defaults, that’s the end of our time as a world economic power. It would be a total, utter disaster.
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### Author:  [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)
#### Post date: [January 13, 2023, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debt-ceiling-fight-practicalities/977779/10 "2023-01-13T20:49:38Z")
> [@Horatius](#):
>
> At some point, we’re going to have to let the Crazy Wing of the GOP crash the economy, in a forlorn hope that this might finally teach them why playing chicken with crashing the economy is a bad idea.
Nah, nobody is going to believe the bluff, because we all know they aren’t holding the cards.
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### Author:  [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)
#### Post date: [January 13, 2023, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debt-ceiling-fight-practicalities/977779/11 "2023-01-13T21:31:48Z")
> [@RitterSport](#):
>
> If the US defaults, that’s the end of our time as a world economic power. It would be a total, utter disaster.
See, **we** know that. But the idiots in the GOP Crazy Wing don’t. And no one has ever been able to explain it to them, despite multiple efforts over the last two decades at least.
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### Author:  [@DeadTreasSecretaries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadTreasSecretaries)
#### Post date: [January 13, 2023, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debt-ceiling-fight-practicalities/977779/12 "2023-01-13T21:48:25Z")
> [@RitterSport](#):
>
> Do you think that’s what it was? Then, how will he get the votes if the Republicans in the House can manage to pass something??
An urgent debt ceiling crisis would be bad enough that the entire democratic caucus may be willing to threaten a filibuster carve-out. There was some reporting last time around that even Manchin was on board if there was a republican filibuster which is part of why the GOP eventually made a deal to avoid a showdown. The democratic caucus as a whole isn’t willing to reform the filibuster over a potential future showdown, so they didn’t just do it before the GOP house majority came in.
At least in the past (before the nihilist power grab in the house GOP) the Republicans also haven’t tried to actually go through with a dent default, they just use it as a game of chicken in the hopes that the democrats will blink first. So if that remains true, any debt ceiling deal the house agrees to should hopefully be a breeze through the senate.
Unfortunately we all have to hope at this point that enough of the house GOP will break with an almost guaranteed leadership effort to hold up the debt ceiling and force a vote. I hope in the future that senate democrats have enough imagination to realize they need to be willing to do what is necessary to lock in essential government functions while they are able rather than relying on a weakened group establishment GOP politicians to do thr sane thing in the end.
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### Author:  [@flurb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flurb)
#### Post date: [January 13, 2023, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debt-ceiling-fight-practicalities/977779/13 "2023-01-13T22:00:00Z")
> [@RitterSport](#):
>
> > [@flurb](#):
> >
> > It’s likely that Schumer knew he didn’t have the votes in the Senate to overcome a Republican filibuster on a debt limit extension.
>
> Do you think that’s what it was? Then, how will he get the votes if the Republicans in the House can manage to pass something??
There weren’t enough Republican votes to overcome a filibuster because it wasn’t a catastrophe yet. This has been the game with the last several debt ceiling bills – Senate Republicans are starkly opposed until it gets to the point where serious economic disruption is imminent then enough of them fold to let it pass. It’s a game of chicken. And like chicken, the players just need to miscalculate once to do irreparable damage.
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### Author:  [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)
#### Post date: [January 14, 2023, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debt-ceiling-fight-practicalities/977779/14 "2023-01-14T11:45:40Z")
> [@DeadTreasSecretaries](#):
>
> (before the nihilist power grab in the house GOP)
> [@flurb](#):
>
> And like chicken, the players just need to miscalculate once to do irreparable damage.
Yeah, this is the problem here. Nihilists playing chicken with the US economy is _not_ a good situation.
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### Author:  [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)
#### Post date: [January 14, 2023, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debt-ceiling-fight-practicalities/977779/15 "2023-01-14T13:57:33Z")
> [@Horatius](#):
>
> Plus, it might convince their corporate donors to finally pull the plug on the crazy wing.
Everything I’ve seen indicated that the crazy wing doesn’t depend on corporate donors. They get their funding from individual voters.
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### Author:  [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)
#### Post date: [January 14, 2023, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debt-ceiling-fight-practicalities/977779/16 "2023-01-14T14:49:12Z")
When will we finally stop pretending that the debt ceiling exists? Whatever else they can do, Congress cannot change the laws of mathematics. Debt equals spending minus revenue, and so once Congress sets spending and revenue, they have also set debt. By the process of setting revenue and spending, they have inherently authorized debt.
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### Author:  [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)
#### Post date: [January 14, 2023, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debt-ceiling-fight-practicalities/977779/17 "2023-01-14T14:56:30Z")
Basically this is congress with the debt ceiling:
[ ](https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/027/787/boot.jpg)
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### Author:  [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)
#### Post date: [January 14, 2023, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debt-ceiling-fight-practicalities/977779/18 "2023-01-14T15:05:38Z")
I’m always reminded of the old joke where the man comes home to find his wife in bed with some other guy. Thinking quickly the husband pulls out his pistol, points it at his own head and shouts: “Don’t laugh; you’re next!”
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### Author:  [@flurb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flurb)
#### Post date: [January 14, 2023, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debt-ceiling-fight-practicalities/977779/19 "2023-01-14T15:06:26Z")
> [@Chronos](#):
>
> Debt equals spending minus revenue, and so once Congress sets spending and revenue, they have also set debt. By the process of setting revenue and spending, they have inherently authorized debt.
That’s certainly a valid argument. The Constitutional issue is that Article I, Section 8 provides that among Congress’ enumerated powers are, “To pay the Debts . . .” and, “To borrow Money on the credit of the United States.” Does it require more than the implicit understanding that authorizing expenditures in excess of revenues necessitates the issuance of debt for Congress to exercise these powers? Historically, the answer has always been yes. Prior to the debt limit, Congress used to authorize each individual debt issuance going back to the founding.
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### Author:  [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)
#### Post date: [January 14, 2023, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debt-ceiling-fight-practicalities/977779/20 "2023-01-14T18:23:33Z")
Why, when the Dems are in power, don’t they raise the debt limit to $1 bazillion?
Or, issue a [trillion-dollar coin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trillion-dollar_coin)?
Put another way, why do dems let this be a perpetual problem?
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