# Debt ceiling fight practicalities **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 6, 2023, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debt-ceiling-fight-practicalities/977779 "2023-01-06T10:12:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2023, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debt-ceiling-fight-practicalities/977779/21 "2023-01-14T18:27:12Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Why, when the Dems are in power, don’t they raise the debt limit to $1 bazillion? Because it would play into the false narrative that Dems are fiscally irresponsible? And no Republican would support it. Better to do away with the procedure properly in a manner that doesn’t have the optics of being irresponsible rather than circumventing it. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2023, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debt-ceiling-fight-practicalities/977779/22 "2023-01-14T18:27:33Z")
Because they don’t have 60 votes in the Senate. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2023, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debt-ceiling-fight-practicalities/977779/23 "2023-01-14T18:38:38Z")
I thought the trillion-dollar coin could be issued by the Treasury without the need for congress to get involved (I very well may be wrong about that). ---
**Author:** ![flurb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@flurb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flurb)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2023, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debt-ceiling-fight-practicalities/977779/24 "2023-01-14T18:50:09Z")
The Constitutionality of the trillion-dollar coin gambit is uncertain. It could also pose unintended consequences relative to the money supply. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2023, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debt-ceiling-fight-practicalities/977779/25 "2023-01-14T18:50:15Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > If the US defaults, that’s the end of our time as a world economic power. It would be a total, utter disaster. > [@flurb](#): > > It’s a game of chicken. And like chicken, the players just need to miscalculate once to do irreparable damage. You are vastly overestimating what’s at stake in this “game of chicken”. The financial markets will (quite correctly) give zero credence to the ability of these chumps to make the U.S. actually default on its debt and send the world into financial armageddon. What’s as stake in the _worst_ case is public finances seizing up temporarily - the impact of government workers stopping work and not getting paid, social security payments not getting made, etc. These things would obviously harm vulnerable people and harm the economy, but the stakes are nowhere near as high as default. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2023, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debt-ceiling-fight-practicalities/977779/26 "2023-01-14T19:04:44Z")
> [@flurb](#): > > > [@Chronos](#): > > > > By the process of setting revenue and spending, they have inherently authorized debt. > > That’s certainly a valid argument. The Constitutional issue is that Article I, Section 8 provides that among Congress’ enumerated powers are, “To pay the Debts . . .” and, “To borrow Money on the credit of the United States.” Does it require more than the implicit understanding that authorizing expenditures in excess of revenues necessitates the issuance of debt for Congress to exercise these powers? Historically, the answer has always been yes. Prior to the debt limit, Congress used to authorize each individual debt issuance going back to the founding. To hear the FC tell their side, what they claim to want is if possible to go back to authorizing each individual issuance – explicitly, by individual Act Of Congress rather than implicitly by authorizing the Treasury to issue “up to X” – BUT in either case conditioned to the repayment coming in whole or in part from cuts in Things They Don’t Like. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2023, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debt-ceiling-fight-practicalities/977779/27 "2023-01-14T19:17:54Z")
The other thing I’d like to see, the next time sane people control Congress and the White House, would be a bill that says that, if a year’s budget is ever not passed by the time the new budget is needed, that all spending automatically remains at current levels until such time as a new budget is passed. Republicans would of course try to repeal that, but that would require them to actually accomplish something, as opposed to just stopping all accomplishment. ---
**Author:** ![flurb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@flurb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flurb)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2023, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debt-ceiling-fight-practicalities/977779/28 "2023-01-14T19:49:40Z")
If this were in place, Congress might never pass a new budget again. It’s the threatened or actual pain of a government shutdown that ultimately gets Republicans to (eventually) agree to pass a budget. If you take that away, why would they ever cave? ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2023, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debt-ceiling-fight-practicalities/977779/29 "2023-01-14T19:51:38Z")
> [@DeadTreasSecretaries](#): > > An urgent debt ceiling crisis would be bad enough that the entire democratic caucus may be willing to threaten a filibuster carve-out. Which wouldn’t matter at all if the House is the problem. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2023, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debt-ceiling-fight-practicalities/977779/30 "2023-01-14T19:58:44Z")
Presumably because there would be no route for their donors to extract more money. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2023, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debt-ceiling-fight-practicalities/977779/31 "2023-01-14T20:00:08Z")
It seems to me that, if the MAGA crowd tries to hold things up in the House and absolutely refuse to relent, that just pushes the rest of the Republican party to have to make compromises with the Democrats. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2023, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debt-ceiling-fight-practicalities/977779/32 "2023-01-14T20:01:04Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > At some point, we’re going to have to let the Crazy Wing of the GOP crash the economy, in a forlorn hope that this might finally teach them why playing chicken with crashing the economy is a bad idea. But - IF this happens, why would it be the Crazy Wing that crashes the economy. What would stop the purported non-crazy Rs (if there are any) from proposing some solution enough Dems can agree with? Sure, they would face primaries in the future, but they would actually be able to cite a record of doing their jobs responsibly. ---
**Author:** ![flurb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@flurb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flurb)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2023, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debt-ceiling-fight-practicalities/977779/33 "2023-01-14T20:01:29Z")
Their donors are small-dollar individuals who just want them to scream about their grievances and corporations who are more interested in tax breaks (which can be done through reconciliation) than direct handouts. Defense industry would go nuts though. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2023, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debt-ceiling-fight-practicalities/977779/34 "2023-01-14T20:02:01Z")
I agree. What I am unclear on is how much the Freedom Caucus can obstruct things. They are a minority but we have seen them throw a wrench in the gears with great success in the recent nominating of the Speaker. A handful of people messed up the whole thing. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2023, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debt-ceiling-fight-practicalities/977779/35 "2023-01-14T20:26:27Z")
Kevin McCarthy wants everything that the FC wants. Look at what the House has passed in the past week. - Establishing a Select Subcommittee on the Weaponization of the Federal Government as a select investigative subcommittee of the Committee on the Judiciary. - Establishing the Select Committee on the Strategic Competition Between the United States and the Chinese Communist Party. - Expressing the sense of Congress condemning the recent attacks on pro-life facilities, groups, and churches. - Born-Alive Abortion Survivors Protection Act. - To rescind certain balances made available to the Internal Revenue Service. - Protecting America’s Strategic Petroleum Reserve from China Act. That the FC caucus is crazy is a given. People now need to remember that Kevin McCarthy is just as crazy and extrapolate from there. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2023, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debt-ceiling-fight-practicalities/977779/36 "2023-01-14T20:29:10Z")
When you let the crazies put your 'nads in their vice, well … they’re not your 'nads anymore. McCarthy was happily leaning a long way towards FC-dom three months ago. But now he’s got zero room to lean any way but 100% their way. 'Nads meet vice. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2023, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debt-ceiling-fight-practicalities/977779/37 "2023-01-14T21:34:55Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I’d like to see, the next time sane people control Congress and the White House, would be a bill that says that, if a year’s budget is ever not passed by the time the new budget is needed, that all spending automatically remains at current levels until such time as a new budget is passed. > [@flurb](#): > > If this were in place, Congress might never pass a new budget again. It’s the threatened or actual pain of a government shutdown that ultimately gets Republicans to (eventually) agree to pass a budget. Note from experience in a jurisdiction that has such a provision: any inflation, any contingency expense, any reduction or even non-increase in tax receipts (plus no new debt issue), and the “automatic repeat of last year’s budget” provision will _not_ cover _this_ year. You run into a shutdown or a default before the end of the FY **anyway**. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2023, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debt-ceiling-fight-practicalities/977779/38 "2023-01-15T04:51:24Z")
The thing is the greenback is the fiat currency of the world. It is ludicrous to imagine that because the fuckwits in the Republican party won’t increase the debt limit to cover what Congress has already approved to spend, the world will suddenly flee the dollar for the Chinese yuan (or pick your currency). This is a Sarah Palin reading of the debt. This is a stoopid, made up _procedural_ crisis that has been going on for far too long. I do believe the Treasury will issue the trillion dollar coin if it comes to that. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2023, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debt-ceiling-fight-practicalities/977779/39 "2023-01-15T11:55:08Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > The financial markets will (quite correctly) give zero credence to the ability of these chumps to make the U.S. actually default on its debt and send the world into financial armageddon. The last time this happened, during the Obama presidency, spreads started widening some when it looked like it was a remote possibility. Moody’s (and I think S&P) downgraded the debt from Aaa to Aa1 or Aa2, again giving default more than zero chance. Those Republicans were much more reality-based and much less nihilist than these. I’m not saying we will default. I’m saying that the possibility is higher than anyone is giving credit for, and the results would be catastrophic. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2023, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debt-ceiling-fight-practicalities/977779/40 "2023-01-15T16:53:47Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > What would stop the purported non-crazy Rs (if there are any) from proposing some solution enough Dems can agree with? The same thing that let them allow the Crazy Wing to hold the Speakership hostage in exchange for massive concessions of power to the Crazy Wing. The non-crazy wing might not be crazy, but they are clearly cowards who simply won’t stand up to the Crazy Wing on any issue. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debt-ceiling-fight-practicalities/977779.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debt-ceiling-fight-practicalities/977779.md?page=3)