# Debt ceiling fight practicalities **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 6, 2023, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debt-ceiling-fight-practicalities/977779 "2023-01-06T10:12:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2023, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debt-ceiling-fight-practicalities/977779/41 "2023-01-15T17:11:29Z")
Right - I agree. I guess I was thinking it not fair to place all this blame on the few crazies. There is SO MUCH room for some compromise that wouldn’t necessarily taint the Right’s entire agenda (whatever that may be), and which WOULD signal actual responsible governing. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2023, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debt-ceiling-fight-practicalities/977779/42 "2023-01-17T01:06:37Z")
The trillion dollar coin idea is absolutely nuts, but not as nuts as defaulting on the debt. I hope Biden keeps it in his back pocket, even if he doesn’t announce it publicly unless it becomes the only way to avoid default. ---
**Author:** ![DeadTreasSecretaries](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deadtreassecretaries/32/4817_2.png) [@DeadTreasSecretaries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadTreasSecretaries)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2023, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debt-ceiling-fight-practicalities/977779/43 "2023-01-17T01:19:52Z")
The only sensible bill would simply raise the debt ceiling and do nothing else. There is nothing in the GOP agenda that’s actually related, and some kind of deficit reduction plan is both not something the GOP actually wants and clearly not something that having a debt ceiling incentivizes over the long term. It is reasonable for GOP representatives who are willing to compromise to get concessions in something like a budget where most of what the government does is on the bill any way, but a debt ceiling increase is inherently neutral (i.e. neither left nor right) to any sane politician. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2023, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debt-ceiling-fight-practicalities/977779/44 "2023-01-17T01:28:08Z")
Negotiation is give and take - each side asks for something the other side doesn’t want to give or do. So what are the Democrats asking for in this supposed negotiation? Avoiding a debt default isn’t something the Republican party has said they don’t want. So there’s nothing for the Democrats to ask for - and if there’s nothing to ask for, there’s nothing to negotiate. ---
**Author:** ![Heracles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heracles/32/487_2.png) [@Heracles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heracles)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2023, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debt-ceiling-fight-practicalities/977779/45 "2023-01-17T01:31:13Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Avoiding a debt default isn’t something the Republican party has said they don’t want. I am not _not_ misunderstanding that sentence, no sir. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2023, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debt-ceiling-fight-practicalities/977779/46 "2023-01-17T01:52:26Z")
> [@DeadTreasSecretaries](#): > > The only sensible bill would simply raise the debt ceiling and do nothing else. Wouldn’t the really sensible bill abolish the debt ceiling, and tie spending obligations to appropriations for those obligations right away? ---
**Author:** ![DeadTreasSecretaries](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deadtreassecretaries/32/4817_2.png) [@DeadTreasSecretaries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadTreasSecretaries)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2023, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debt-ceiling-fight-practicalities/977779/47 "2023-01-17T02:13:22Z")
Well yes but both parties think its bad optics. ---
**Author:** ![flurb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@flurb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flurb)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2023, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debt-ceiling-fight-practicalities/977779/48 "2023-01-17T02:34:32Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Wouldn’t the really sensible bill abolish the debt ceiling, and tie spending obligations to appropriations for those obligations right away? I’m not sure what the second half of this sentence means. But Congress used to operate under the “Gephard rule” which dictated that whenever Congress passed its annual budget, the debt ceiling would be automatically deemed raised by a corresponding amount. The rule stood until repealed by – wait for it – Newt Gingrich and the Republican revolutionaries in 1995. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2023, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debt-ceiling-fight-practicalities/977779/49 "2023-01-17T02:50:05Z")
What I meant was that each authorisztion for a spending would also include an authorization to go into debt to cover it. That seems to be what the Gephard rule did, although still in the context of having a debt ceiling. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2023, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debt-ceiling-fight-practicalities/977779/50 "2023-01-17T02:55:56Z")
> [@flurb](#): > > That’s certainly a valid argument. The Constitutional issue is that Article I, Section 8 provides that among Congress’ enumerated powers are, “To pay the Debts . . .” and, “To borrow Money on the credit of the United States.” Does it require more than the implicit understanding that authorizing expenditures in excess of revenues necessitates the issuance of debt for Congress to exercise these powers? One interpretation of the 14th Amendment is such approval to issue debt is inherent in the system as it is unconstitutional for the United States to **not** honor its obligations. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2023, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debt-ceiling-fight-practicalities/977779/51 "2023-01-17T18:49:04Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > wouldn’t necessarily taint the Right’s entire agenda Their entire agenda: - Make Joe Biden look bad through: - Investigations - Harming the economy - Avoiding giving him any legislative wins - Cutting the IRS so their rich sponsors don’t get audited - Owning the libs Giving Biden an easy win goes against one of their three major agenda items! ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2023, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debt-ceiling-fight-practicalities/977779/52 "2023-01-21T15:17:34Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > At some point, we’re going to have to let the Crazy Wing of the GOP crash the economy, in a forlorn hope that this might finally teach them why playing chicken with crashing the economy is a bad idea. I fully expect this soon. I heard a radio clip of McConnell saying that the United States has never defaulted on its debt, and never will. I think you can throw “never will” right out of that statement. Republicans have gone hard on the crazy burn it down lunacy, and they’re going to fuck this up. It would be nice to be wrong about this, but I wouldn’t bet a nickel on that. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2023, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debt-ceiling-fight-practicalities/977779/53 "2023-01-21T16:05:34Z")
And then the useless media will bothsiders it and the GOP will blame all the consequences on the Democrats. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2023, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debt-ceiling-fight-practicalities/977779/54 "2023-01-21T16:33:10Z")
I’m glad to see that Biden is taking a reasonably firm stand on this. > “President Biden looks forward to meeting with Speaker McCarthy to discuss a range of issues, as part of a series of meetings with all new congressional leaders to start the year,” Jean-Pierre said. “Like the president has said many times, raising the debt ceiling is not a negotiation; it is an obligation of this country and its leaders to avoid economic chaos. Congress has always done it, and the president expects them to do their duty once again. That is not negotiable.” > **[McCarthy says he looks forward to meeting with Biden, as debt ceiling debate...](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/mccarthy-accepts-biden-invitation-debt-ceiling-meeting/)** > > The White House has said it won't negotiate with Republicans on raising the debt ceiling. The U.S. reached its borrowing limit a day ago, according to the treasury secretary. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2023, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debt-ceiling-fight-practicalities/977779/55 "2023-01-21T16:46:49Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > Biden is taking a reasonably firm stand on this The Democrats are looking stronger at this point - holding a firm line on it and no obvious disunity aside from the perennial Manchin. And needless to say, every editorial and opinion piece from any economic or financial expert of any political persuasion aligns with what Biden is saying - that the whole process of using this as a bargaining chip is insane. The Republicans are all over the place, squabbling about what concessions they want to extract and undermining each other. > **[Trump to GOP: Don’t touch Medicare or Social Security in debt ceiling fight](https://www.politico.com/news/2023/01/20/trump-gop-medicare-social-security-debt-ceiling-00078731)** > > The ex-president has long viewed entitlement reform as a political loser. But his timing, now, is notable. I don’t think it’s just wishful thinking to say that the Republicans are not looking clear-eyed and determined this time in the game of chicken, just chaotic evil. I think they’ve got a hard road to hoe in convincing swing voters that precipitating financial armageddon will be the fault of the Dems. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2023, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debt-ceiling-fight-practicalities/977779/56 "2023-01-21T18:34:15Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > The Democrats are looking stronger at this point - holding a firm line on it and no obvious disunity aside from the perennial Manchin. It would certainly be nice for the Ds to have a bit bigger majority in the HoR last time and an actual majority in the HoR now, so they could simply kick Manchin out. He’s simply a Republican pretending to be the rightmost D and therefore a swing vote of mongo power connected to insane desires. As to Trump’s comments, I wonder how much his actual motivation is that he himself wants to have the privilege of turning the USA into someplace akin to the Philippines by gutting SS & Medicare. He would love to watch all the peons circling the drain from a deed done by his hand. Power! I am THE POWER!! ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2023, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debt-ceiling-fight-practicalities/977779/57 "2023-01-21T19:04:57Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > I think they’ve got a hard road to hoe in convincing swing voters that precipitating financial armageddon will be the fault of the Dems. This reminds me of what some Republicans were suggesting during the House Speaker vote clusterfuck: “Democrats have the power to just get this done.” (Not that that was what _you_ intended.) ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2023, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debt-ceiling-fight-practicalities/977779/58 "2023-01-21T21:07:10Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > I don’t think it’s just wishful thinking to say that the Republicans are not looking clear-eyed and determined this time in the game of chicken, just chaotic evil. I think they’ve got a hard road to hoe in convincing swing voters that precipitating financial armageddon will be the fault of the Dems. The problem with his assessment, it that in a game a chicken, the one thing that is worse the barreling down the road towards an car driven by an opponent with nerves of steel, is barreling down the road towards a car where there is no one at the wheel. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2023, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debt-ceiling-fight-practicalities/977779/59 "2023-01-22T00:26:26Z")
I agree: > **[White House to McCarthy: No negotiations on debt limit](https://apnews.com/article/biden-politics-united-states-government-district-of-columbia-kevin-mccarthy-e59d479a21811e6dbe5557b3cff11d6d)** > > WASHINGTON (AP) — The White House says President Joe Biden “looks forward” to sitting down with new House Speaker Kevin McCarthy to discuss a range of topics, including perhaps the thorniest challenge confronting Washington this year: raising the... (basically the same as you posted…sorry…doesn’t hurt repeating though) ---
**Author:** ![Guest-starring\_Id](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guest-starring_id/32/21736_2.png) [@Guest-starring\_Id](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guest-starring_Id)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2023, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debt-ceiling-fight-practicalities/977779/60 "2023-01-22T22:27:26Z")
The sit-down will tank: McCarthy, the venal weasel he is, will get pearl-clutchy over Biden’s assertions that the debt is for everyting that is CURRENTLY OWING, and even though McCarthy would most likely have been aware of that _anyway,_ he’ll still put up some kinda BS front that “duuuuur spending’s _still_ way out of control” or some such disengenuous quibble to show his party that Biden isn’t gonna go pushing him around, nosiree, and then emerge from the talk whining about how dictatorial or something Biden was trying to be. ETA: Or (for shame!) _Unwilling to negotiate!!!1111!!!1111_, amirite, Kev? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debt-ceiling-fight-practicalities/977779.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debt-ceiling-fight-practicalities/977779.md?page=4)