# Debunk "Jews came to America in 1000 BC" **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 26, 2010, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunk-jews-came-to-america-in-1000-bc/548114 "2010-07-26T22:47:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunk-jews-came-to-america-in-1000-bc/548114/21 "2010-07-27T15:56:36Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > > [@Cardinal](#): > > > > That’s a very good point about the lack of technology traces in America. Besides that, is there any evidence that people had the ability to make it from Africa to America reliably at the time? > > I know nothing about sailing, but several hundred years BC the Phoenicians had circumnavigated Africa, and Mesopotamian invoices show trade taking place over longer than transatlantic distances between Mesopotamia and Pakistan/India/Oman/possibly the Horn of Africa (depending on whether the places have been properly identified) well before 1000BC. If the question is “could they?”, the answer is yes. If the question is “did they”, that’s a different matter. Well, hugging the African coast is a little different then sailing west across the Atlantic. But it isn’t inconceivable a phonecian era vessel could’ve gotten very lost and ended up in the Americas. If the guy had found the stone on the Eastern seaboard that might be a plausible explanation, but New Mexico? If it was some sort of trade-good, you could posit it was passed from native American Civilazation to native American civilization via trade-routes, but boulder with writing in a foreign language is hardly a valuble trade good, or particularly transportable. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunk-jews-came-to-america-in-1000-bc/548114/22 "2010-07-27T15:57:14Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > > [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > > > And it certainly is lunacy. One of the supposed linguistic verifications on that Wiki page comes from Barry Fell. He’s the _America B.C._ guy. It’s like citing Velikovski on astronomy. If we’re not debunking claims of this sort, why bother going on? > > I remember reading Bronze Age America and thinking “this man must be mad, this can’t be right”. The pictures of Ogham inscribed stones were very impressive, though. To quote from wikipedia: > > \*David H. Kelley, an archaeologist at the University of Calgary who is credited with a major breakthrough in the decipherment of Mayan glyphs, complained about Fell in a 1990 essay: “Fell’s work [contains] major academic sins, the three worst being distortion of data, inadequate acknowledgment of predecessors, and lack of presentation of alternative views.” In the same essay, however, Kelley went on to state that “I have no personal doubts that some of the inscriptions which have been reported are genuine Celtic ogham.” Kelley concluded: “Despite my occasional harsh criticism of Fell’s treatment of individual inscriptions, it should be recognized that without Fell’s work there would be no [North American] ogham problem to perplex us. We need to ask not only what Fell has done wrong in his epigraphy, but also where we have gone wrong as archaeologists in not recognizing such an extensive European presence in the New World.”[10] > > - Which is one person’s thinking, put onto a Wikipedia page that otherwise properly blasts Fell up and down presumably by a defender who wanted to find something, anything to make Fell look legitimate. Other mainstream archaeologists do not recognize an extensive pre-Columbian European presence in the New World. They recognize zero presence outside of a tiny Viking colony in the far northeast. As for Kelley, here’s what the [Bad Archaeology](http://www.badarchaeology.net/forgotten/barry_fell.php) page had to say in Fell’s obituary. > [@](#): > > One of his few academic supporters, David Kelley of the University of Calgary, was one of the first to recognise that the Maya script was essentially phonetic, as opposed to ideographic. He admits that the majority of examples used by Fell are errors of interpretation, but concludes that he has drawn attention to a number of anomalous texts that may indicate some form of pre-Columbian contact. He has even supported some of the claimed Ogham texts, which most mainstream archaeologists dismiss as cracks in the rock face, plough marks or out-and-out forgeries. Wikipedia is a wonderful tool, but like any tool you have to know how to work it. If you don’t know anything at all about a subject, especially one on which there is controversy, it is always dangerous to blindly quote Wiki. They will try to ensure that defenders and attackers are equally represented in what they call neutrality. But woo-woo is only defendable by more woo-woo. The two sides are not equal and should not be held up as equals. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunk-jews-came-to-america-in-1000-bc/548114/23 "2010-07-27T16:08:04Z")
Here we go. Barry Fell used to defend Israelites in America 1000 B.C. [America B.C. House of Israel](http://www.asis.com/users/stag/americab.html) And Welch [sic] too! > [@](#): > > Here’s part of any email I recently received: > > Hello! I just returned to my favorite subject ( King Beli) on the web and found your page. I too have compiled and researched some years ago my family roots and prepared a similiar report. One of my Scottish (5th)great uncle ancestor (James Adair) published a book about 1750 in England on the very subject that dealt with his missionary service of 40 years living with the American Indians and as a Scotsman/ Welch knew the Hebrew language and without effort could understand the Indian language as it was purely old Hebrew. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunk-jews-came-to-america-in-1000-bc/548114/24 "2010-07-27T16:17:11Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Well, hugging the African coast is a little different then sailing west across the Atlantic. But it isn’t inconceivable a phonecian era vessel could’ve gotten very lost and ended up in the Americas. If the guy had found the stone on the Eastern seaboard that might be a plausible explanation, but New Mexico? If it was some sort of trade-good, you could posit it was passed from native American Civilazation to native American civilization via trade-routes, but boulder with writing in a foreign language is hardly a valuble trade good, or particularly transportable. It should also be noted that Thor Heyerdahl made it across the Pacific from the Americas in a [one man raft](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kon-Tiki). ---
**Author:** ![CC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f1d935/32.png) [@CC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CC)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunk-jews-came-to-america-in-1000-bc/548114/25 "2010-07-27T16:20:57Z")
> [@Darth\_Panda](#): > > …if God doesn’t exist, then all science is the way it is because of something else… This, of course, is the core problem that believers are stuck with. They can’t tolerate or accept the unknown. They are flummoxed by uncertainty, ambiguity, or simply a lack of complete understanding. They must attribute items, acts and events and forces to God. The notion that something has been observed but has not been explained by science means to them that the answer must be God, and not “we don’t know, we haven’t a clue, etc.” That is completely unacceptable to them. ---
**Author:** ![Asympotically\_fat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e47c2d/32.png) [@Asympotically\_fat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asympotically_fat)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunk-jews-came-to-america-in-1000-bc/548114/26 "2010-07-27T16:49:34Z")
Isn’t this one of the central tennets of Mormonism? ---
**Author:** ![CJJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecc23a/32.png) [@CJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CJJ)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunk-jews-came-to-america-in-1000-bc/548114/27 "2010-07-27T16:51:36Z")
While the Los Lunas stone obviously has interest as a mystery, I’m not sure I understand the (possibly hidden) motives of folks who argue it’s genuine (other than, of course, the perceived scientific truth of their own argument). Is this stone cited as evidence supporting the Mormon version of pre-Columbian history, or is there a different agenda at work? Just curious… ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunk-jews-came-to-america-in-1000-bc/548114/28 "2010-07-27T16:59:00Z")
> [@These are my own pants](#): > > Isn’t this one of the central tennets of Mormonism? [Yeah](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nephite). ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunk-jews-came-to-america-in-1000-bc/548114/29 "2010-07-27T17:05:20Z")
> [@CJJ](#): > > While the Los Lunas stone obviously has interest as a mystery, I’m not sure I understand the (possibly hidden) motives of folks who argue it’s genuine (other than, of course, the perceived scientific truth of their own argument). > > Is this stone cited as evidence supporting the Mormon version of pre-Columbian history, or is there a different agenda at work? Just curious… Just going by the link in the OP, it seems some Christians are touting it as evidence that the Ancient Israeli Empire was a bigger deal then modern archaeology has revealed it to be. Not every podunk civilization can circumnavigate the globe, after all. You would think the Mormons would be all over this though, but I’ve never seen it come up in any debates on Mormon beliefs. Maybe I’ve just missed it, though. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunk-jews-came-to-america-in-1000-bc/548114/30 "2010-07-27T18:19:22Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > It should also be noted that Thor Heyerdahl made it across the Pacific from the Americas in a [one man raft](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kon-Tiki) Nitpick: [Six man raft](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kon-Tiki#Crew) ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunk-jews-came-to-america-in-1000-bc/548114/31 "2010-07-27T18:37:52Z")
Oops. ---
**Author:** ![Rhodes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhodes/32/273_2.png) [@Rhodes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhodes)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunk-jews-came-to-america-in-1000-bc/548114/32 "2010-07-27T20:23:16Z")
Ex-mormon here. Yes, Mormons absolutely believe that a few groups of Hebrews migrated to the Americas. The majority of the _Book of Mormon_ deals with Lehi’s descendants that settled in the Promised Land after fleeing Jerusalem in 600 BC. In my college-level _Book of Mormon_ class in 1996, the favorite piece of archaeological evidence was the [Izapa Stela 5](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izapa_Stela_5), known among Mormons as the Tree of Life Stone. My Institute teacher spent 2 hours going over details such as Hebrew clothing and Egyptian gestures in the carving. Also interesting is the 1820-ish book _View of the Hebrews_ by Ethan Smith (no relation to Joseph), which presents the author’s opinion that the American Indians are Hebrews. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunk-jews-came-to-america-in-1000-bc/548114/33 "2010-07-27T21:00:18Z")
> [@Cardinal](#): > > His contention is that everyone is biased and interpreting evidence to suit their preferred conclusions, so he doesn’t respect any counterevidence I give him. This is what YEC arguments always boil down to. They are right as far as you can defend any hypothesis by coming up with ad hoc excuses (aka “interpreting” data). But they are wrong to imply that both sides of the “debate” do this equally. Because to real scientists, no concept is sacred. The only axioms they have are those essential for employing the scientific method. And they only “believe” in the big bang, say, because it makes good, testable predictions (i.e. it is “operational” science). This is the kind of thing I wish I could say to every creationist. Not that they’d listen, but I’d feel better. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunk-jews-came-to-america-in-1000-bc/548114/34 "2010-07-27T21:01:20Z")
Were there even _Jews in 1000 B.C._? Obviously their ancestors existed then as did everybody else’s, but 1000 BC was, by tradition, the time of the reign of David and I don’t even associate Judaism with coming into existence until after the Temple which wasn’t built until late in the reign of his son Solomon. I think really after the Captivity is considered when ‘Jews’ emerged- i.e. when it became a more portable/less bound to a particular place religion. ---
**Author:** ![paperbackwriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@paperbackwriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/paperbackwriter)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunk-jews-came-to-america-in-1000-bc/548114/35 "2010-07-27T23:03:37Z")
> [@Rhodes](#): > > Also interesting is the 1820-ish book _View of the Hebrews_ by Ethan Smith (no relation to Joseph), which presents the author’s opinion that the American Indians are Hebrews. An outgrowth of the obsession for locating the [Lost Tribes of Israel](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Tribes). During the 17th and 18th centuries, in particular, many explorers claimed finding one of the lost tribes upon returning from the Americas. There’s even today a guy (Howshua Amariel) claiming the Cherokee Nation is descended from one of the lost tribes, and that Israel’s Law of Return should apply to him. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunk-jews-came-to-america-in-1000-bc/548114/36 "2010-07-27T23:09:55Z")
[QUOTE=paperbackwriter] There’s even today a guy (Howshua Amariel) claiming the Cherokee Nation is descended from one of the lost tribes, and that Israel’s Law of Return should apply to him. [/QUOTE] On one of the “Did Nostradamus and the Da Vinci Code Predict Ice Road Truckers Will Rule the World in 2012?” style shows on _History Channel_ they had a Cherokee who subscribes to the Really Lost Israelites mythos. They did DNA testing on him and some of his supporters, both mitochondrial and Y chromosome, and, surprise-surprise, no semitic ancestry either way. His response was to the effect of “Nah-ah! I am too a Hebrew!” There’s no way of winning a debate with some people as no evidence will convince them. ---
**Author:** ![SoulFrost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f07891/32.png) [@SoulFrost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SoulFrost)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunk-jews-came-to-america-in-1000-bc/548114/37 "2010-07-27T23:43:26Z")
> [@CC](#): > > > [@Darth\_Panda](#): > > > > …if God doesn’t exist, then all science is the way it is because of something else… > > This, of course, is the core problem that believers are stuck with. They can’t tolerate or accept the unknown. They are flummoxed by uncertainty, ambiguity, or simply a lack of complete understanding. They must attribute items, acts and events and forces to God. The notion that something has been observed but has not been explained by science means to them that the answer must be God, and not “we don’t know, we haven’t a clue, etc.” That is completely unacceptable to them. Maybe you need to hang out with a better class of believer… ---
**Author:** ![CC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f1d935/32.png) [@CC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CC)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunk-jews-came-to-america-in-1000-bc/548114/38 "2010-07-27T23:52:07Z")
To be more fair, the argument advanced by many but not all people for the existence of God is that there _has_ to be some explanation for xyz, and since we have no idea of what that explanation is, there must be a god. How else can you explain…xyz? ---
**Author:** ![SoulFrost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f07891/32.png) [@SoulFrost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SoulFrost)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2010, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunk-jews-came-to-america-in-1000-bc/548114/39 "2010-07-28T00:07:51Z")
> [@CC](#): > > This, of course, is the core problem that believers are stuck with. They can’t tolerate or accept the unknown. They are flummoxed by uncertainty, ambiguity, or simply a lack of complete understanding. They must attribute items, acts and events and forces to God. The notion that something has been observed but has not been explained by science means to them that the answer must be God, and not “we don’t know, we haven’t a clue, etc.” That is completely unacceptable to them. > [@CC](#): > > To be more fair, the argument advanced by many but not all people for the existence of God is that there _has_ to be some explanation for xyz, and since we have no idea of what that explanation is, there must be a god. How else can you explain…xyz? I’d call that a problem with people. If it’s not God, it’s the Devil. Lacking a Devil, it must be Spirits, Fairies, or Goblins. With no Spirits, Fairies, or Goblins around, we turn to Phlogiston, Humors, and the Luminiferous Aether. It’s only a short hop from there to Men in Black, 9-11 Coverups, and Ancient Mariners. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2010, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunk-jews-came-to-america-in-1000-bc/548114/40 "2010-07-28T00:17:28Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > They did DNA testing on him and some of his supporters, both mitochondrial and Y chromosome, and, surprise-surprise, no semitic ancestry either way. They are able to tell who is really a Levite from DNA testing. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunk-jews-came-to-america-in-1000-bc/548114.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunk-jews-came-to-america-in-1000-bc/548114.md?page=3)