# Debunk (or bunk) this claim about Paul Ryan's plan **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [September 18, 2012, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunk-or-bunk-this-claim-about-paul-ryans-plan/635049 "2012-09-18T04:25:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2012, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunk-or-bunk-this-claim-about-paul-ryans-plan/635049/1 "2012-09-18T04:25:20Z")
I get emails from the Democratic Party and the Obama campaign all the time, and I usually just glance over them to see if it includes anything I don’t already know. However, I’m looking at a mail claimed to be written by Harry Reid (from the address [info@searchlightpac.com](mailto:info@searchlightpac.com)), titled “Paul Ryan Math.” It makes some reasonable assertions and not-too-far-from-the-truth claims about Paul Ryan’s budget plans, until the following: [QUOTE=Harry Reid] Truth is, his Medicare plan would cost seniors an extra $6,400 a year, _**his tax plan would let Mitt Romney pay less than one percent**_, and his budget numbers simply don’t add up. [/quote] The first and third claims are either true, or pretty close to it depending on your perspective. The second claim, which I emphasized, seems particularly dishonest though. Has Paul Ryan ever actually proposed or endorsed a plan which would give Mitt Romney a “less than one percent” tax rate? Is there a way to parse that, which isn’t outright false? ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2012, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunk-or-bunk-this-claim-about-paul-ryans-plan/635049/2 "2012-09-18T04:30:37Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > The first and third claims are either true, or pretty close to it depending on your perspective. The second claim, which I emphasized, seems particularly dishonest though. Has Paul Ryan ever actually proposed or endorsed a plan which would give Mitt Romney a “less than one percent” tax rate? Is there a way to parse that, which isn’t outright false? Ryan’s 2010 plan had a zero capital gains tax. Almost all of Romney’s taxes come from capital gains, so if that plan had become a reality, Romney would’ve paid pretty close to zero in total federal taxes. ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunk-or-bunk-this-claim-about-paul-ryans-plan/635049/3 "2012-09-18T04:41:57Z")
I have just the link for you! > **[Mitt Romney Would Pay 0.82 Percent in Taxes Under Paul Ryan's Plan](https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/08/mitt-romney-would-pay-082-percent-in-taxes-under-paul-ryans-plan/261027/)** > > Paul Ryan's plan is a path to prosperity for Mitt Romney. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2012, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunk-or-bunk-this-claim-about-paul-ryans-plan/635049/4 "2012-09-18T13:11:04Z")
Those accusations against Ryan’s 2011 plan are true. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2012, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunk-or-bunk-this-claim-about-paul-ryans-plan/635049/5 "2012-09-18T13:16:04Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Those accusations against Ryan’s 2011 plan are true. Which Romney said he would have signed. By taking on Ryan as his running mate, Romney bought into the whole Ryan package. Sure, Ryan walked it back when the noxious truth came out, but would he walk it back in with his party in charge of the entire government? Probably. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2012, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunk-or-bunk-this-claim-about-paul-ryans-plan/635049/6 "2012-09-18T13:36:02Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Which Romney said he would have signed. By taking on Ryan as his running mate, Romney bought into the whole Ryan package. Sure, Ryan walked it back when the noxious truth came out, but would he walk it back in with his party in charge of the entire government? Probably. What do you mean by “walked it back?” Did Ryan back off on the “0% capital gains tax” thing? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2012, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunk-or-bunk-this-claim-about-paul-ryans-plan/635049/7 "2012-09-18T13:39:12Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Which Romney said he would have signed. By taking on Ryan as his running mate, Romney bought into the whole Ryan package. Sure, Ryan walked it back when the noxious truth came out, but would he walk it back in with his party in charge of the entire government? Probably. I believe he would sign it. That still does not mean it’s his current plan. Nor is it Ryan’s current plan. Obama would have signed a single payer bill. perhaps we should attack him for favoring a government-run health care system? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2012, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunk-or-bunk-this-claim-about-paul-ryans-plan/635049/8 "2012-09-18T13:42:20Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I believe he would sign it. That still does not mean it’s his current plan. Nor is it Ryan’s current plan. Obama would have signed a single payer bill. perhaps we should attack him for favoring a government-run health care system? No, we should praise him for favoring a government-run health care system. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2012, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunk-or-bunk-this-claim-about-paul-ryans-plan/635049/9 "2012-09-18T13:48:18Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > What do you mean by “walked it back?” Did Ryan back off on the “0% capital gains tax” thing? Not sure about the current Ryan plan - from what I can tell he “vaguified” it for the 2012 budget so that it just instructs CBO to evaluate options to get to target revenue via tax cuts and expenditure cutting. The Romney plan calls for 0% on capital gains for earners up to $200k, IIRC. With, of course, the 20% cut on marginal rates on earned income as well. And some various unspecified cuts in deductions. So really there is no way to accurately predict what Romney would pay under his own plan until he releases the details of what deductions he wants to cut (which, of course, he won’t). ---
**Author:** ![babygoat666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/2acd7d/32.png) [@babygoat666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/babygoat666)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2012, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunk-or-bunk-this-claim-about-paul-ryans-plan/635049/10 "2012-09-18T14:24:32Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I believe he would sign it. That still does not mean it’s his current plan. Nor is it Ryan’s current plan. Obama would have signed a single payer bill. perhaps we should attack him for favoring a government-run health care system? Medicare is a government-run healthcare system. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2012, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunk-or-bunk-this-claim-about-paul-ryans-plan/635049/11 "2012-09-18T14:37:18Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > No, we should praise him for favoring a government-run health care system. We could. I’m glad you would endorse that line of attack should Romney ever decide to use it. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2012, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunk-or-bunk-this-claim-about-paul-ryans-plan/635049/12 "2012-09-18T14:50:42Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > We could. I’m glad you would endorse that line of attack should Romney ever decide to use it. Romney’s attacks are beginning to resemble Wile E. Coyote’s. He’d be better off having his jaws wired shut for the next seven weeks. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2012, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunk-or-bunk-this-claim-about-paul-ryans-plan/635049/13 "2012-09-18T15:14:34Z")
To further use that analogy, the email the OP got attacking Ryan’s plan is like attacking the Road Runner where he was yesterday. ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2012, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunk-or-bunk-this-claim-about-paul-ryans-plan/635049/14 "2012-09-18T15:41:26Z")
Fair enough, adaher, although I’ll note that if Romney supported the 2011 Ryan budget (which would have left him at a taxable rate of 0.83), it’s fair to call him out on supporting it. Either way, it seems Romney’s plan is still much better for the top few percentage points of income. > **[Mitt Romney's tax plan feasible, studies show, but at a cost](https://www.latimes.com/world/la-xpm-2012-sep-14-la-na-romney-tax-plan-20120915-story.html)** > > Mitt Romney's tax plan feasible, studies show, but at a cost ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2012, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunk-or-bunk-this-claim-about-paul-ryans-plan/635049/15 "2012-09-18T17:16:16Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > I get emails from the Democratic Party and the Obama campaign all the time, and I usually just glance over them to see if it includes anything I don’t already know. > > However, I’m looking at a mail claimed to be written by Harry Reid (from the address [info@searchlightpac.com](mailto:info@searchlightpac.com)), titled “Paul Ryan Math.” It makes some reasonable assertions and not-too-far-from-the-truth claims about Paul Ryan’s budget plans, until the following: > > > [@Harry Reid](#): > > > > Truth is, his Medicare plan would cost seniors an extra $6,400 a year, **his tax plan would let Mitt Romney pay less than one > > percent**, and his budget numbers simply don’t add up. > > The first and third claims are either true, or pretty close to it depending on your perspective. The second claim, which I emphasized, seems particularly dishonest though. Has Paul Ryan ever actually proposed or endorsed a plan which would give Mitt Romney a “less than one percent” tax rate? Is there a way to parse that, which isn’t outright false? Let’s go to [FactCheck.org](http://FactCheck.org)… [Democratic Disinformation from Charlotte](http://factcheck.org/2012/09/democratic-disinformation-from-charlotte/) > [@](#): > > Multiple speakers repeated a claim that the Ryan/Romney Medicare plan would cost seniors $6,400 a year. That’s a figure that applied to Ryan’s 2011 budget plan, but his current proposal (the one Romney embraces) is far more generous. The Congressional Budget Office says it “may” lead to higher costs for beneficiaries, but it can’t estimate how much. And CBSNews… [Due Diligence: Would Ryan have Romney pay a 1% tax rate?](http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-57499092-503544/due-diligence-would-ryan-have-romney-pay-a-1-tax-rate/) > [@](#): > > So President Obama’s claim that Ryan once put out a plan that would have Romney pay less than 1 percent in taxes is true. But that is not a part of Ryan’s latest plan, and it isn’t Romney’s plan. You can certainly make the case that Ryan’s 2010 budget reflects the Republican belief that taxes on the rich should be reduced. But you can’t say Romney is pushing a plan that would cut his taxes to less than one percent. As to his budget numbers “not adding up”… [Election Policy Fact Check: Ryan Budget Plan Impact](http://newsdesk.umd.edu/sociss/release.cfm?ArticleID=2763) > [@](#): > > [Professor Philip] Joyce says that while the rhetoric from both sides about Ryan’s budget proposal has been intense, Ryan, who chairs the House Budget Committee, hasn’t actually offered any details about one of the most significant points of his proposal - cuts to federal government services. Thus, it’s impossible to know what the actual impact of his budget would be. > … > _As of now, we know this: Relative to the path that the budget is currently on, the Ryan budget would reduce deficits and debt, but all of these actions would be on the spending side. While it is clear that Social Security is off the table, and while the policy implications for Medicare and Medicaid are clearer, it is impossible to determine what the effects elsewhere would be. Budgeting is about choice, and choice is about information. The Ryan budget does not include enough specifics to permit an informed choice._ So of Harry Reid’s three claims… 1. Was true but not true of the current Ryan proposal. 2. Was true but not true of the current Ryan proposal. 3. TDB. Insufficient information on details of plan to be able to determine if the numbers add up. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2012, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunk-or-bunk-this-claim-about-paul-ryans-plan/635049/16 "2012-09-18T17:36:46Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > To further use that analogy, the email the OP got attacking Ryan’s plan is like attacking the Road Runner where he was yesterday. So, you are saying Romney infected Ryan with flip-flop-itis? And has Ryan ever said why he has changed his mind (besides the obvious reason that it wouldn’t fly in a campaign?) Do we have any reason not to believe that the 2011 version is what he would really want to see implemented if they win? Sorry, you just can’t put the old plan down the memoryhole. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2012, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunk-or-bunk-this-claim-about-paul-ryans-plan/635049/17 "2012-09-18T17:45:08Z")
So the ‘Ryan Plan’ did have a less than 1% tax rate. That plan being **his plan** , then the answer is pretty obvious, it’s true. The argument for falseness is that the ‘Ryan Plan’ isn’t some specific plan, but could have any part of it change for political convenience. But that also makes it true since one of those political conveniences could be Mitt paying less than 1%. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2012, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunk-or-bunk-this-claim-about-paul-ryans-plan/635049/18 "2012-09-19T10:44:15Z")
Ryan’s plan changed in response to the special election defeats over Medicare. He reached out to Ron Wyden and they came up with a bipartisan compromise plan and that’s currently what Ryan supports. Romney supports something a little different from that, although I believe he’d sign the Ryan plan if that’s what Congress sent him. That’s how politics is SUPPOSED to work. The Republicans passed a politically tough plan. THey got hammered for it. So they changed it in response to public rejection. Democrats could learn from that, rather than just passing a bill the public hates and then acting as if they did nothing wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Knig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@Typo\_Knig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Knig)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2012, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunk-or-bunk-this-claim-about-paul-ryans-plan/635049/19 "2012-09-19T11:09:15Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I believe he would sign it. That still does not mean it’s his current plan. Nor is it Ryan’s current plan. Obama would have signed a single payer bill. perhaps we should attack him for favoring a government-run health care system? Obama submitted a multi-payer plan to Congress, and moved heaven and earth to get it passed. PPACA even covers distracting strawmen. 😉 I have not reviewed the Romney and Ryan tax plans myself. From the coverage of those who have, I’ve concluded that what Romney and Ryan have so far is the cover sheet for a tax plan and not an actual tax plan that can be evaluated for impact on the budget and the economy. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2012, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunk-or-bunk-this-claim-about-paul-ryans-plan/635049/20 "2012-09-19T11:11:59Z")
It’s a set of basic principles and their tax plans differ. Ryan wanted to eliminate capital gains taxes. Romney does not have that in his plan. When it comes to tax and spending decisions, you can’t really make promises because Congress decides that stuff. So yeah, Romney would probably sign the Ryan plan if it passed Congress, either the 2011 version or the new version. Likewise, he’d sign a compromise bill that included only a little of what he and Ryan want but also includes many Democrat priorities. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunk-or-bunk-this-claim-about-paul-ryans-plan/635049.md?page=2)