# Debunking Atkins **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 8, 2002, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunking-atkins/141302 "2002-12-08T14:25:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunking-atkins/141302/81 "2002-12-11T13:28:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Justhink \* > **But it’s true! Every word of it is true!** Oh, that’s OK then. No cites required. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunking-atkins/141302/82 "2002-12-11T13:36:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Cuckoorex \* > \*\*I’m trying to say that the ADA’s suggestions for controlling weight through their guidelines do not seem to be producing overwhelming success in battling the obesity ‘epidemic.’ I’m not saying that the ADA’s guidelines won’t work if they are followed; what I’m saying is, if people are not willing to follow the ADA’s guidelines but they ARE willing to follow Atkins’ guidelines, and either approach will take the weight off, then the Atkins approach is more effective. \*\* I acknowledge what you’re saying, but i think it’s absurd. If you’re going to blame the ADA for the rise in obesity in the last 30 years, even though the obesity occurs in people who don’t follow the ADA guidelines, then I’m going to blame Atkins for the rise in obesity in the last 30 years, even though the obesity occurs in people who don’t follow Atkins’ guidelines. It’s a ridiculous way to assign responsibility. And if people are not willing to follow the Atkins’ guidelines but they ARE willing to follow the ADA guidelines, and either approach will take the weight off, then the ADA approach is more effective. See what I mean? As I said before, if people are unwilling to follow the ADA guidelines but are willing to follow the Atkins guidelines, all that shows is that Atkins is superior to a jun-food diet. Everyone admits that. It still is likely to be inferior to a varied, low-fat diet emphasizing whole foods. Daniel PS I remember hearing once that Eskimos have the highest rate of colon cancer of any people on earth. I’ll see if I can find a cite. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunking-atkins/141302/83 "2002-12-11T13:40:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DanielWithrow \* > \*\*PS I remember hearing once that Eskimos have the highest rate of colon cancer of any people on earth. I’ll see if I can find a cite. \*\* If true, that’s probably down to [lack of fiber in their diet](http://www.tfn.net/HealthGazette/colon.html). Atkins recommends fiber supplements. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunking-atkins/141302/84 "2002-12-11T13:47:18Z")
Okay, I can’t find what I was remembering re: Eskimos and colon cancer. I did find a reference [stating that Aleuts, a Native Alaskan people, have phenomenally high rates of colon cancer](http://members.aol.com/natamcan2/chap04.htm): > [@](#): > > Alaska Natives living in the state of Alaska have the highest age-adjusted colon and rectum cancer incidence rate per 100,000 population for both sexes (Alaska, 1977-83) in comparison with all other racial groups, such as blacks and whites. The Alaska Natives rate is 62.6/100,000 and the white rate is 52.8/100,000. The American Indian both sexes colon and rectum cancer incidence rate is significantly lower among American Indians living in Arizona and New Mexico, with a rate of 10.2 per 100,000. When tribal and IHS Area data are reviewed, the most striking data are for Alaska Natives. Alaska Native males have a colon and rectum cancer incidence rate of 61.0 which is similar to the white male rate of 64.5. Aleut males have a colon and rectum cancer incidence rate of 114.8. Other Alaska Native male groups are significantly lower in colon and rectum incidence rates. Eskimo males have a rate of 53.2 and Athapaskan Alaska Native males have a rate of 40.4. Granted, this is from an AOL page, but it reflects information you’ll find on NIH pages – this is simply the best summary I’ve been able to find of this information. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunking-atkins/141302/85 "2002-12-11T14:16:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > \*\*Scylla quoted from Quack: > > Dr. Atkins explained in his book why he hasn’t published. Since you’ve read it, why don’t you share his reason with us? \*\* Why don’t you stop being pissy? I haven’t memorized the book, and I’m not looking it up to satisfy your indignant hissy fit. You want to contribute, then contribute. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunking-atkins/141302/86 "2002-12-11T14:42:02Z")
Have a look at the enormous number of [url=http://atkinscenter.com/science/researchsummaries/index.html]_independent_ studies\* cited on Atkin’s homepage. Granted, they’re almost certainly selective, but no more so than any of the other research posted here. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunking-atkins/141302/87 "2002-12-11T14:43:09Z")
Oh bugger. [Corrected link](http://atkinscenter.com/science/researchsummaries/index.html). ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunking-atkins/141302/88 "2002-12-11T14:50:09Z")
jjimm: Yeah I’ve been there. This is germaine: [http://atkinscenter.com/Archive/2002/1/11-846989.html](http://atkinscenter.com/Archive/2002/1/11-846989.html) It backs up what I’ve been saying about calorie reduction in the initial phase. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunking-atkins/141302/89 "2002-12-11T15:01:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > \*\*Why don’t you stop being pissy? I haven’t memorized the book, and I’m not looking it up to satisfy your indignant hissy fit. > > You want to contribute, then contribute. \*\* It sounds to me like you’re just ranting. Why didn’t you make this a Pit thread in the first place? 🙂 I haven’t memorized the book either, but I did comprehend it. And without opening it, I can tell you that Dr. Atkins does not write research papers because he is a _practicing physician_ with a case load that requires two-thirds of his day. He dedicates himself to his practice because he cares about his patients. And before you protest that he found time to write his book, you should know that his book, though bearing his name, was written primarily by his staff, including Micahel Bernstein, Olivia Bell Buehl, and most of all, Bill Fryer. Other contributers were a variety of nutritionists and medical specialists. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunking-atkins/141302/90 "2002-12-11T15:16:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > \*\*It sounds to me like you’re just ranting. Why didn’t you make this a Pit thread in the first place? \*\* Why don’t you take a valium, and mind your own business? > [@](#): > > I haven’t memorized the book either, but I did comprehend it. And without opening it, I can tell you that Dr. Atkins does not write research papers because he is a _practicing physician_ with a case load that requires two-thirds of his day. He dedicates himself to his practice because he cares about his patients. And I can tell you that this is total bullshit, irresponsible, and a lie. If you care about your patients you don’t arbitrarily put them on potentially harmful dietary regimes of questionable efficacy until you have scientifically proven that it is safe and effective. You do the research first, then you prescribe to patients. Atkins did the opposite. He came up with some interesting ideas and put people on the diet without using scientific controls to judge the efficacy and the safety. He’s making his assertions and leaving it to everybody else to prove or disprove it. That’s not the way it works. You prove your claim before making it. Only a shyster and a fraud would place patients on a regimen based on unproven claims. > [@](#): > > \*\*And before you protest that he found time to write his book, you should know that his book, though bearing his name, was written primarily by his staff, including Micahel Bernstein, Olivia Bell Buehl, and most of all, Bill Fryer. Other contributers were a variety of nutritionists and medical specialists. \*\* More total bullshit. You should have enough intelligence to know that if he had somebody write a book he could just as easily have somebody else conduct a study and publish a paper. The question is simply one of priorities. Atkins makes money from his books. A research paper might produce unfavorable results, and wouldn’t make him money, so why take the chance? As my quackwatch cite says: following up with the 60,000 patients he treated at his centers with a simple questionaire wouldn’t take that much effort, and would provide enormous value. That Atkins makes excuses not to do it is a telling fact. Also, if he cared about patients, as you say, you would think that a reasonable minimum standard of care would have him following up to actual see if they achieved the desired results. You would think that there would be valuable data to be gained that would benefit present patients, and help him refine his technique. He doesn’t because he’s a dangerous fraud, a shyster. He sells pseudoscience and big promises to hopeful people who really deserve a lot better. ---
**Author:** ![Cuckoorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cuckoorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cuckoorex)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunking-atkins/141302/91 "2002-12-11T15:55:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DanielWithrow \* > **I acknowledge what you’re saying, but i think it’s absurd. If you’re going to blame the ADA for the rise in obesity in the last 30 years, even though the obesity occurs in people who don’t follow the ADA guidelines, then I’m going to blame Atkins for the rise in obesity in the last 30 years, even though the obesity occurs in people who don’t follow Atkins’ guidelines. It’s a ridiculous way to assign responsibility.** I’m not blaming the ADA for the rise in obesity at all. I’m saying that the ADA’s approach to presenting guidelines for weight loss are not meeting with spectacular success. Even the Mayo Clinic has suggested a food pyramid that is different than the standard food pyramid. [http://www.mayoclinic.com/findinformation/conditioncenters/invoke.cfm?objectid=357FAABB-312F-414A-A8D6401C15EE66B4](http://www.mayoclinic.com/findinformation/conditioncenters/invoke.cfm?objectid=357FAABB-312F-414A-A8D6401C15EE66B4) Personally, I think Mayo’s Healthy Weight Pyramid might be the ideal “weight loss” guideline, _if people follow it_. I’m still unconvinced that the low carb diets have such negative consequences that they should be avoided, however. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunking-atkins/141302/92 "2002-12-11T16:07:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Cuckoorex \* > \*\*I’m not blaming the ADA for the rise in obesity at all. I’m saying that the ADA’s approach to presenting guidelines for weight loss are not meeting with spectacular success. \*\* We may be talking past one another. If you’re including people who don’t follow the ADA’s guidelines in your evaluation of their success, then I have to say that the Atkins diet is unsuccessful, too, because I’m including people that don’t follow the Atkins diet in my evaluation of its success. That said, the Mayo clinic’s guidelines look good to me at first glance. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunking-atkins/141302/93 "2002-12-11T16:29:07Z")
Scylla wrote: > [@](#): > > And I can tell you that this is total bullshit, irresponsible, and a lie. Um, you might want to take your own advice about that valium. 😃 Actually, it isn’t a lie. He really is a practicing physician. And he actually based his diet on pre-existing research. Then, he began his own research, using only those patients who consented. Merely because he doesn’t write research papers doesn’t mean he doesn’t do research. > [@](#): > > More total bullshit. You should have enough intelligence to know that if he had somebody write a book he could just as easily have somebody else conduct a study and publish a paper. Really, it isn’t bullshit. He has done exactly what your demanding, but you have said that anyone who researches on his funding, like Duke University, is biased. ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunking-atkins/141302/94 "2002-12-11T16:31:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > **Actually, it isn’t a lie. He really is a practicing physician. And he actually based his diet on pre-existing research. Then, he began his own research, using only those patients who consented. Merely because he doesn’t write research papers doesn’t mean he doesn’t do research.** But if he doesn’t publish, how are we to know that his research isn’t flawed? That’s the whole point of peer review. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunking-atkins/141302/95 "2002-12-11T16:45:54Z")
Lib: > [@](#): > > Really, it isn’t bullshit. He has done exactly what your demanding, He has? My apologies then. Please point me to the study concerning the ongoing efficacy, and results of the 60,000 people he’s treated in his centers. > [@](#): > > but you have said that anyone who researches on his funding, like Duke University, is biased. I said no such thing. Stop lying. ---
**Author:** ![Epimetheus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c4cdca/32.png) [@Epimetheus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Epimetheus)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunking-atkins/141302/96 "2002-12-11T17:08:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DanielWithrow \* > \*\*Nitpick: if you’re a vegetarian, and > > - If you eat a maintenance amount of calories (e.g., 2000 a day or thereabouts), and > - If you eat a variety of foods (e.g., your diet doesn’t consist solely of oatmeal), and > - If you don’t get most of your calories from alcohol, oils, refined sugars, or sweet potatoes, then > - You’ll get all the protein you need. > > Estimates for the amount of protein a diet needs range from 2.5% to 8% of one’s calories. Very few whole foods derive fewer than 10% of their calories from protein. And eating a variety of foods ensures that you’ll eat all the different amino acids you need for good health. > > Although vegetarian gurus in the '60s and '70s thought that vegetarians needed to obsess about protein combinations, research in the '80s debunked that. A few vegetarians and vegans still come down with nasty diseases like kwashiankor (sp?) every now and then, but usually it’s because they’re subsisting on a junk-food diet. > > Daniel \*\* Hate to hijack this thread, but **Daniel** , I feel sorry for your muscles. I really hope you are not an active person. According to the [ACSM](http://acsm.org/), [here](http://www.acsm.org/pdf/0080FS44.pdf), on Page 4: > [@](#): > > It has been determined that the recommended daily allowance of protein for healthy adults is 0.8 g/kg/day or 12-15 percent of daily caloric intake. And for those a bit more active, i.e athletes it goes on to suggest the usual 1.2 to 1.8 grams per kilo a day, which is supposed to still equal about 12-15%. They do not suggest the 2.0+ grams of protien per kilo of bodyweight that many suppliment providers “suggest”. I would think the American College of Sports Medicine is a pretty reliable source. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunking-atkins/141302/97 "2002-12-11T17:21:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Epimetheus \* > \*\* > I would think the American College of Sports Medicine is a pretty reliable source. 😉 \*\* So is the [United Nations University](http://www.unu.edu/unupress/unupbooks/80295e/80295E03.htm#Protein%20requirements%20for%20adults), I think; they say: > [@](#): > > The data presented at this meeting indicate that the mean requirement for a protein source of nutritional value equal to that of egg or milk protein is approximately 0.6 g/kg/day, or a value 30 per cent greater than that proposed in the 1973 FAD/WHO report. At any rate, most vegetable sources contain as much protein as humans need. Especially if you eat legumes and nuts regularly, you shouldn’t have to worry. (and since I eat eggs and dairy products, I’m in no danger. Thanks for your concern, though!) Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Truth\_Seeker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5fc32e/32.png) [@Truth\_Seeker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truth_Seeker)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunking-atkins/141302/98 "2002-12-11T19:38:47Z")
Geez, what a thread. Let’s all calm down and have a nice, friendly religious debate on the evils of Islam instead. > [@](#): > > \*\*Runner’s World conducted a study in their October issue wherein they placed half of a pool of runner’s on the Atkins diet, and at intervals measured their performance on a treadmill against a control group. The Atkins runners reported a lower energy level, didn’t feel as good, and this was confirmed by a degradation in their ability to run. Conclusion, the Atkins diet saps your energy. \*\* **Scylla** , what were the details of this study? If the control group was on a similarly calorie-restricted diet, it would be interesting. If the control group wasn’t on any diet at all, all it says is that people on diets have less energy than people who aren’t on diets. Now I’m a firm agnostic in this area. However, I do notice a couple of things. First, it seems to me like the warning against high fat intake is elliding several different things. AFAIK, the best predictor of heart disease is high cholesterol, not fat intake. Now, it’s true that high fat intake, obesity and high cholesterol are linked. BUT, if there is a way to have a high fat intake along with a low blood cholesterol level, I’m not certain that the parade of horribles usually associated with a high-fat diet necessarily follows. One thing is clear: nobody really knows what the answers are. For example, we just learned that “yo-yo” dieting doesn’t appear to cause long-term health problems. Given that obesity has been a serious problem for at least forty years, it’s surprising that it has taken this long to do the research. Something similar seems to be true for the high protien, low carbohydrate approach to dieting. To quote the recent summary of the new research in USA Today, > [@](#): > > Several years ago, government officials and obesity researchers called for scientific studies on the low-carbohydrate plan, and those results are beginning to trickle in. To me it seems too early to say, definitively, which diets work better and what the long term health risks are. ---
**Author:** ![openzgate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e480ec/32.png) [@openzgate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/openzgate)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunking-atkins/141302/99 "2002-12-11T20:20:21Z")
The Adkins diets, and other copycat diets, are based on the premise that ancient man’s diet was mostly meat, with little plant sources. I.e., this is the diet that our bodies were brought up on on an evolutionary scale. I can’t believe this. Of course, no one knows what our ancestors’ diet was like exactly, but this belief is contested by many scientists today. What makes much more common sense is that ancient man ate mostly plant sources with some meat thrown in when he/she could get it. It takes a lot of energy to catch an animal, unlike a plant. Plants were much more readily available. I’m not sure exactly how Adkins came up with this strange idea, but it falls in the face of common sense and other experts in the field. ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunking-atkins/141302/100 "2002-12-11T20:30:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by openzgate \* > \*\*The Adkins diets, and other copycat diets, are based on the premise that ancient man’s diet was mostly meat, with little plant sources. I.e., this is the diet that our bodies were brought up on on an evolutionary scale. > > I can’t believe this. Of course, no one knows what our ancestors’ diet was like exactly, but this belief is contested by many scientists today. What makes much more common sense is that ancient man ate mostly plant sources with some meat thrown in when he/she could get it. It takes a lot of energy to catch an animal, unlike a plant. Plants were much more readily available. I’m not sure exactly how Adkins came up with this strange idea, but it falls in the face of common sense and other experts in the field. \*\* Please cite some of these experts, and explain why common sense should overrule scientific evidence. According to the best evidence available (see the many articles [here](http://www.beyondveg.com/cat/paleodiet/index.shtml)), early man ate a lot of meat. In particular, see [this article](http://www.beyondveg.com/nicholson-w/hb/hb-interview1a.shtml). Also, keep in mind that while an animal may be hard to catch, plants are much more likely to be poisonous. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunking-atkins/141302.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunking-atkins/141302.md?page=6)