# Debunking Atkins **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 8, 2002, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunking-atkins/141302 "2002-12-08T14:25:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunking-atkins/141302/101 "2002-12-11T20:42:14Z")
Well, in most primitive societies, meat is very rare-most people live on beans and rice, and vegetables, don’t they? ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunking-atkins/141302/102 "2002-12-11T20:43:44Z")
Primitive societies of today are very different from the environment of pre-agriculture humans. ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunking-atkins/141302/103 "2002-12-11T20:44:51Z")
Sorry, I read “primitive” as “poor”. Still, the world has changed quite a bit in the past million years. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunking-atkins/141302/104 "2002-12-12T00:08:32Z")
Please tell me, before I adopt the diet of ancient societies, what the average lifespan was back then? Did eating mostly meat keep them happy and healthy, or was it a necessary diet because that was usually all they had to eat because nomadic peoples have trouble developing an agricultural lifestyle? ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunking-atkins/141302/105 "2002-12-12T00:11:23Z")
The average lifespan was low, due to high mortality rates. Beyond that, you’d do better to read the articles I linked to. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunking-atkins/141302/106 "2002-12-12T00:18:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ultrafilter \* > \*\*The average lifespan was low, due to high mortality rates. \*\* DUUUUUUHHHH… :smack: Are ya sure? ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunking-atkins/141302/107 "2002-12-12T00:24:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Czarcasm \* > \*\*Please tell me, before I adopt the diet of ancient societies, what the average lifespan was back then? \*\* Let’s see. I think they grew to be about 4 feet tall due to malnutrition. All their teeth rotted out by the time they were in their twenties, and then they slowly starved to death when they lost the ability to masturbate. Wait a minute I think I got that wrong. When your teeth fell out you lose the ability to “masticate.” You lose the ability to masturbate when a saber-tooth tiger comes and bites your dick off. Then you commit suicide. Those were the two many causes of death in primitive times. ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunking-atkins/141302/108 "2002-12-12T00:26:14Z")
Ahem. Make that high _infant_ mortality rates. Smartass. ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunking-atkins/141302/109 "2002-12-12T00:28:13Z")
I’m not advocating a paloelithic diet. I was responding to \*\* openzgate\*\*'s assertion based on common sense that primitive man was primarily vegetarian. No more, no less. ---
**Author:** ![Truth\_Seeker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5fc32e/32.png) [@Truth\_Seeker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truth_Seeker)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunking-atkins/141302/110 "2002-12-12T00:48:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > \*\*Let’s see. I think they grew to be about 4 feet tall due to malnutrition. All their teeth rotted out by the time they were in their twenties, and then they slowly starved to death when they lost the ability to masturbate. > > Wait a minute I think I got that wrong. When your teeth fell out you lose the ability to “masticate.” > > You lose the ability to masturbate when a saber-tooth tiger comes and bites your dick off. Then you commit suicide. > > Those were the two many causes of death in primitive times. \*\* Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunking-atkins/141302/111 "2002-12-12T02:13:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Truth Seeker \* > \*\*Cite? \*\* [Just don’t get your penis caught](http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/mammal/carnivora/smilside.gif) ---
**Author:** ![Truth\_Seeker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5fc32e/32.png) [@Truth\_Seeker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truth_Seeker)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunking-atkins/141302/112 "2002-12-12T02:28:44Z")
😕 ---
**Author:** ![the\_great\_dalmuti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b2d939/32.png) [@the\_great\_dalmuti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_great_dalmuti)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunking-atkins/141302/113 "2002-12-12T03:08:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > **I haven’t memorized the book either, but I did comprehend it. And without opening it, I can tell you that Dr. Atkins does not write research papers because he is a practicing physician with a case load that requires two-thirds of his day. He dedicates himself to his practice because he cares about his patients.** Dr. Ornish, the Anti-Atkins who advocates a vegetarian, whole foods diet is a practicing physician. He had time to write many books, publish many ariticles in reputable medical and nurtitional publications, and even held a governmental post. And he probably cares about his patients, too. **Epimetheus** , the “how can vegetarians get enough protein” is an old wives tales. I’m a vegan, and eat more than enough protein. Surprisingly enough, if you take an intelligent stance on your diet, and make sure to eat balanced, colorful, modestly-sized, whole food meals, you’ll get everything your body needs. I’m in good shape, ride my bicycle to work evey day, 20 minutes uphill, 20 minutes downhill. No problems whatsoever. I’m muscular, but by no means one of those naturally-muscuclar mesomophs with like .06% bodyfat. I make sure to eat at least 1, though preferably 2, servings of nuts, tofu, or legumes a day. On the same note, another such caution is “but do you get enough calcium?” Of couse I do. Green leafy vegetables, and any kind of seaweed, have ridiculous amounts of calcium. I don’t have any cites at the moment, but cow’s Milk is prized much more than it should be. When a person eats excess protein, it sucks calcium out of their body. So, for every glass of milk you drink, sure you’re getting calcium, but you’re also containing way more protein than your body needs. It counteracts itself. It’s been discovered that osteoperosis actually is provoked by the overconsumption of protein, just as much as from a lack of calcium. But this is all off topic. Sorry about that. Best, TGD ---
**Author:** ![Epimetheus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c4cdca/32.png) [@Epimetheus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Epimetheus)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunking-atkins/141302/114 "2002-12-12T05:44:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by the\_great\_dalmuti \* > \*\ ***Epimetheus** , the “how can vegetarians get enough protein” is an old wives tales. I’m a vegan, and eat more than enough protein. Surprisingly enough, if you take an intelligent stance on your diet, and make sure to eat balanced, colorful, modestly-sized, whole food meals, you’ll get everything your body needs. I never said this. I know what a vegetarians diet is, and I am not out to “get” you guys. I see it as a quite healthy diet. I was contesting DanielW claim that only 2-8% of a diet should be protien, not saying they couldn’t get enough. Nothing about vegetarians either, just that claim. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunking-atkins/141302/115 "2002-12-12T06:11:29Z")
Imagine that I am an ignorant on the subject (well, I am). I red this in the Atkins website (see link below): > [@](#): > > These are the foods you may eat liberally during Induction (2 weeks): > > All fish, all fowl, all shellfish, all meat, all eggs. > > You can consume three to four ounces daily of the following full-fat, firm, soft and semisoft aged cheeses. > > You can have two to three cups per day of: alfalfa sprouts, daikon, mushrooms, arugula, endive, parsley, bok choy, escarole, peppers, celery, fennel, radicchio, chicory, jicama, radishes, chives, lettuce, romaine lettuce, cucumber, mâche, sorrel. > > You can have one cup per day of these veggies: artichoke, celery root, pumpkin, artichoke hearts, rhubarb, asparagus, chard sauerkraut, bamboo shoots, collard greens, scallions, dandelion, > snow peas, bean sprouts, dandelion greens, spaghetti squash, beet greens, eggplant, spinach, broccoli, hearts of palm, string or wax beans, broccoli rabe, kale, summer squash, brussels, kohlrabi, tomato, bean sprouts, leeks, turnips, cabbage, okra, water chestnuts, cauliflower, onion, zucchini. > > Be sure to drink a minimum of eight eight-ounce glasses of water each What is wrong with that? ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunking-atkins/141302/116 "2002-12-12T06:12:36Z")
Bloody hell! I forgot the link :rolleyes: [http://atkinscenter.com/Archive/2001/12/15-464579.html](http://atkinscenter.com/Archive/2001/12/15-464579.html) ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunking-atkins/141302/117 "2002-12-12T13:46:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mighty\_Girl \* > \*\*Imagine that I am an ignorant on the subject (well, I am). I red this in the Atkins website (see link below): > > What is wrong with that? \*\* No fruits on the list (discounting things like summer squash, which are technically fruits but have different nutritional profiles from what we traditionally consider fruits). No minimum amount of vegetables on the list. Too much high-fat food on the list. What’s “wrong” with it is that it doesn’t cohere to current mainstream knowledge about a healthful diet. I put “wrong” in quotation marks because it’s possible that further research will vindicate Atkins. Currently, however, our best information about what’s healthful for humans to eat runs counter to the recommendations you just quoted. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Truth\_Seeker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5fc32e/32.png) [@Truth\_Seeker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truth_Seeker)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunking-atkins/141302/118 "2002-12-12T17:24:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\*What’s “wrong” with it is that it doesn’t cohere to current mainstream knowledge about a healthful diet. \*\* But doesn’t this beg the question? All diets designed to make you lose weight are “unhealthy” in the sense that if you were to continue on them long enough, you would die. A 1500 calorie a day diety is “unhealthy” regardless of what mix of foods you eat. Nonetheless, there is nothing wrong with going on a 1500 calorie a day diet, at least for a while, as part of a weight loss program, is there? There’s a lot of things to be said about this on both sides, but does anybody really think that two weeks of skipping fruits and carbohydrates is going to have a lot of long-term medical side effects? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunking-atkins/141302/119 "2002-12-12T17:33:09Z")
**Truth Seeker** , I’ll revise my original statement: what’s wrong with the 2-week induction phase is that it’s part of a long-term diet that doesn’t cohere to mainstream nutritional guidelines. You’re right that if someone follows only the induction phase and then goes back to eating a healthful diet, there probably won’t be long-term consequences. I didn’t realize that’s what we were arguing about. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Truth\_Seeker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5fc32e/32.png) [@Truth\_Seeker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truth_Seeker)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunking-atkins/141302/120 "2002-12-12T17:59:07Z")
Oh. Well, the post from **Mighty Girl** you were responding to seemed to refer specifically to the first two-week induction phase of this diet. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunking-atkins/141302.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunking-atkins/141302.md?page=7)