# Debunking of the Ghost of Flight 401? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 5, 2002, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunking-of-the-ghost-of-flight-401/117503 "2002-07-05T16:55:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2016, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunking-of-the-ghost-of-flight-401/117503/21 "2016-10-31T20:13:41Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > So, multiplying those two numbers together, there is exactly one ghost? Yes…and that would be the ghost of a chance of any of these stories panning out. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2016, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunking-of-the-ghost-of-flight-401/117503/22 "2016-10-31T22:34:24Z")
I liked[the movie](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0077610/). Look at that cast! How could it NOT be good? "There will never be another crash of an L-1011. " Apparently, ghosts aren’t infallible, or can’t predict the future any better than we can. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2016, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunking-of-the-ghost-of-flight-401/117503/23 "2016-10-31T22:36:46Z")
> [@L\_ancet](#): > > St. Christina the Astonishing, woke from death at her funeral, levitated and could smell the sin on people. Party pooper! I like her name, though. ---
**Author:** ![Goalie8401](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@Goalie8401](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Goalie8401)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2016, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunking-of-the-ghost-of-flight-401/117503/24 "2016-10-31T22:54:45Z")
BOO! This is nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2016, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunking-of-the-ghost-of-flight-401/117503/25 "2016-10-31T23:35:32Z")
> [@seal\_cleaner](#): > > Sir Arthur Conan Doyle believed that Harry Houdini performed some of his stunts by dematerializing himself, despite being told by Houdini himself that that was not the case. He firmly believed in fairies too. [Cottingley Fairies - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cottingley_Fairies) ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2016, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunking-of-the-ghost-of-flight-401/117503/26 "2016-10-31T23:51:19Z")
> [@L\_ancet](#): > > St. Christina the Astonishing, woke from death at her funeral, levitated and could smell the sin on people. > Link: [https://illegiterati.com/2008/05/23/st-christina-the-astonishing/](https://illegiterati.com/2008/05/23/st-christina-the-astonishing/) Sin or gin? ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2016, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunking-of-the-ghost-of-flight-401/117503/27 "2016-11-01T13:02:43Z")
> [@Serious\_Dogstar](#): > > … > > - It seems unlikely to me that they would or could re-use parts from a plane that went into swampland at 227mph. Even non-critical things like an oven. In 1972 I don’t know how it was done, today if a plane crashes the FAA collects every single part of the plane, not the airline. > … Even knowing this is a zombie a couple times over… I saw an aircraft investigations video on YouTube which discussed this crash. They do make mention of the alleged ghost sightings at the end and it is definitely not the focus of the story. In that episode they do mention that several parts were returned in good condition to the airline. They theorized that the gentle angle of descent, so gentle it went unnoticed by the pilots who were otherwise focused on a different cockpit problem, was responsible for the shallow angle of impact. And by crashing into a swamp the kinetic energy dissipated more slowly than if they had impacted more solid earth. Net result was a lot of interior plane parts sustained relatively little damage. No idea if investigators today would return parts like that, but taken together it makes sense how certain parts could be in usable condition after the crash of flight 401. ---
**Author:** ![markn\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@markn\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markn_1)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2016, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunking-of-the-ghost-of-flight-401/117503/28 "2016-11-01T15:45:18Z")
> [@UncleRojelio](#): > > This zombie refuses to die. I think it did die back in 2002, but it came back as … A GHOST!! ---
**Author:** ![Kimballkid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b5a626/32.png) [@Kimballkid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimballkid)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2016, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunking-of-the-ghost-of-flight-401/117503/29 "2016-11-01T15:50:32Z")
> [@UncleRojelio](#): > > This zombie refuses to die. Somebody needs to shoot it in the head with a silver bullet. Or a bullet dipped in garlic. Or something. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2016, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunking-of-the-ghost-of-flight-401/117503/30 "2016-11-01T20:06:45Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Sin or gin? Poetic license or translation error? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2016, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunking-of-the-ghost-of-flight-401/117503/31 "2016-11-01T20:23:45Z")
> [@outlierrn](#): > > Poetic license or translation error? Gin would certianly be easier to smell than sin. ---
**Author:** ![jeffwb70](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8e8cbc/32.png) [@jeffwb70](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jeffwb70)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2018, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunking-of-the-ghost-of-flight-401/117503/32 "2018-05-13T10:41:57Z")
> [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > Speaking of mysterious phenomena…It appears that I was the OP of this thread, but I have no recollection of having posted it. I don’t even remember ever having heard this story, or having discussed this or any other paranormal phenomena with co-workers. Highly suspicious… Is this meant to be sarcastic towards the original author linked to in this thread (that wrote the book)? I’m surprised no one ever questioned this particular post here. A hoax about a hoax so the speak. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2018, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunking-of-the-ghost-of-flight-401/117503/33 "2018-05-13T16:15:41Z")
> [@si\_blakely](#): > > Ghosts don’t exist. > > Zombies, on the other hand … > [@UncleRojelio](#): > > This zombie refuses to die. > [@Kimballkid](#): > > Somebody needs to shoot it in the head with a silver bullet. > > Or a bullet dipped in garlic. > > Or something. Hi **jeffwb70**. > [@](#): > > > [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > > > Speaking of mysterious phenomena…It appears that I was the OP of this thread, but I have no recollection of having posted it. I don’t even remember ever having heard this story, or having discussed this or any other paranormal phenomena with co-workers. Highly suspicious… > > Is this meant to be sarcastic towards the original author linked to in this thread (that wrote the book)? I’m surprised no one ever questioned this particular post here. A hoax about a hoax so the speak. **SpoilerVirgin** doesn’t appear to be poking fun at the author of the book, as far as I can tell. Just doesn’t recall ever having posted the original post. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2018, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunking-of-the-ghost-of-flight-401/117503/34 "2018-05-13T16:26:24Z")
I saw the movie. Ernest Borgnine played the ghost. Wasn’t a bad movie. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2018, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunking-of-the-ghost-of-flight-401/117503/35 "2018-05-13T22:39:52Z")
> [@jeffwb70](#): > > Is this meant to be sarcastic towards the original author linked to in this thread (that wrote the book)? I’m surprised no one ever questioned this particular post here. A hoax about a hoax so the speak. Welcome to the Straight Dope. SpoilerVirgin was just making a comment (three years ago) about having forgotten all about posting the original post 18 years ago. I don’t quite see how you found that worth reviving a thread that was so old and that no one had posted to for over two years. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2018, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunking-of-the-ghost-of-flight-401/117503/36 "2018-05-13T22:57:03Z")
Well, [better 16 years late than never;](https://skeptoid.com/episodes/4563) > [@](#): > > Not one among the scores of EAL officers and employees interviewed… expressed any belief whatsoever in the ghost story, and they resented what they felt was Fuller’s twisting or inventing quotes. “The one accurate quote in the book,” Borman comments, “was made by Jim Ashlock when he called the whole story ‘a bunch of crap.’” > > An Eastern representative told Serling that, while pondering whether to sue Fuller or his publisher: > We spent weeks trying to locate anyone who claimed to have seen a ghost and couldn’t find one person. > > Serling also tracked down the Mexico City emergency landing, and found, predictably, that there was no truth whatsoever to the story of a face appearing in an oven window. The breakdown and subsequent emergency landing did in fact happen, and was covered in a tongue-in-cheek brief in the journal of the Flight Safety Foundation. In it, at a party a few weeks after the emergency landing, someone asked one of the pilots how it had been to land an L-1011 on only one engine. The guy laughed and said “Scary. For a minute I thought [Don] Repo’s ghost was on the plane.” > > This one quip appears to be the genesis of the entire story. Perhaps Fuller read it, and was inspired to concoct the rest of the story. But one other very important thing we learn from Serling’s history of Eastern Air Lines is that the central claim of Fuller’s book — that ghosts accompanied the salvaged pieces of Flight 401 installed in other planes — is false. Not a single usable part was salvaged from the wreckage, and not a single component that crashed with Flight 401 was ever installed in another aircraft. ---
**Author:** ![GMANCANADA](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gmancanada/32/2837_2.png) [@GMANCANADA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GMANCANADA)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2018, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunking-of-the-ghost-of-flight-401/117503/37 "2018-05-14T06:51:21Z")
Excellent debunking by Brian Dunning: > **[Grounding the Ghost of Flight 401](https://skeptoid.com/episodes/4563)** > > The unexpected facts behind this famous ghost story from the 1970s. ---
**Author:** ![Isilder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/cc9497/32.png) [@Isilder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isilder)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2018, 10:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunking-of-the-ghost-of-flight-401/117503/38 "2018-05-14T10:07:03Z")
The main test is falsifiability. Is it true that “At first, airline employees refused to talk - afraid of possible reprisals. But gradually , one after another, stewardesses, pilots and ground crews came forward to tell their part of one of the most astonishing stories in recent aviation history.” Well, no there is no good evidence of that. These people aren’t publishing their stories any other way except via fuller. Thats enough, but not all I can say. Also, Fuller publishes claim X. Is it falsifiable except by saying “its totally uncorroborated”. Well no. Is the airline going to deny it ? Even if they do , fuller already has it that the airline is bound to deny it, they are silencing everyone… everyone !. However its also true that they are silenced from attacking fuller if fuller is lying. The reason is that they do not want to say that the pilots do never think of the deceased crew just as much as they want to deny ghosts exist. Its natural to do so right. And they don’t want to say that they do so , because that implies they do “hear the ghosts speaking and do things such as skipping check lists on the ghosts advice.” Why wouldn’t the ghosts, as with any other entity seeking to cure the disbelief in their existence, do something more , something falsifiable… something with more direct evidence that many independent people can witness in some way that means everyone can be sure of . eg Not some statue that cries and stops if a scientest gets near. Anyway, Eastern Airlines had fatal incidents in 74,75 and 85. So the ghosts were overconfident in their abilities if the Fuller book is largely true ? !!! ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2018, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunking-of-the-ghost-of-flight-401/117503/39 "2018-05-14T21:13:29Z")
Hey, thanks guys. Now if I could only remember who my co-workers were in 2002, and which of them believed in ghost stories, I could end the argument once and for all. This thread, on the other hand, will never die. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2018, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunking-of-the-ghost-of-flight-401/117503/40 "2018-05-14T23:18:58Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Well, [better 16 years late than never;](https://skeptoid.com/episodes/4563) Yeah, but did Frank Borman punch Fuller? I’m spoiled and don’t believe Apollo astronauts are mad unless they punch someone. Read the book, saw the movie (well, part of it), and this was adequately debunked in 2002. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunking-of-the-ghost-of-flight-401/117503.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/debunking-of-the-ghost-of-flight-401/117503.md?page=3)