# Decades Of Child Abuse In Ireland: Surprise - Catholic Church Responsible! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 20, 2009, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-of-child-abuse-in-ireland-surprise-catholic-church-responsible/497099 "2009-05-20T18:54:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![DMark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@DMark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMark)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-of-child-abuse-in-ireland-surprise-catholic-church-responsible/497099/1 "2009-05-20T18:54:48Z")
From this [CNN](http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe/05/20/ireland.catholic.report.abuse/?iref=mpstoryview) article. As an avowed ex-Catholic, this is just further proof of the hypocrisy of the Catholic Church with regards to what they practice vs. what they preach. I am sure someone will say, “Oh, but it is just a few rotten apples…” Bullshit. The church had seen this, world-wide, for ages and ages and continues to look away; their dirty little secret. Luckily, I broke away from this idiotic Roman Catholic Cult when I was about 12 but have seen the psychological pain that many go through - the “Catholic guilt” has ruined many lives - there is even a fringe Gay Catholic organization called “Dignity” that is desperately trying to remain faithful to a church that basically has damned them for all eternity. Scientology may be money grubbing nutcases, but at least they don’t go running around abusing children and pretending to be holier-than-thou. For that, the Roman Catholic Church is hands down the evilest of cults, spewing forth homophobia yet allowing their cult members free reign with kids. I wonder if I could sue the church to get the money back I donated as a kid every Sunday. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-of-child-abuse-in-ireland-surprise-catholic-church-responsible/497099/2 "2009-05-20T18:59:36Z")
I am not Catholic or Christian for that matter and I was born and raised in a country thats 90% muslim. I was however a schoolboy in a Catholic run school for several years. All I can say is that I have the higest of respect for the men and women who taught me and those like them. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-of-child-abuse-in-ireland-surprise-catholic-church-responsible/497099/3 "2009-05-20T19:06:32Z")
Ex-catholic too. The continuing defense of the church is totally baffling to me. AFAIC, it’s worse than the Mafia ever was. ---
**Author:** ![Shirley\_Ujest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shirley\_Ujest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shirley_Ujest)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-of-child-abuse-in-ireland-surprise-catholic-church-responsible/497099/4 "2009-05-20T19:15:15Z")
Ex-catholic here. What galls me is dealing with my own family members who view the hatred towards the Catholic Church and the pedophile cases that keep coming and coming like a tsunami of shame and guilt and state that it is a Witch Hunt on Catholics. When I calmly and rationally point out that no other organized MAJOR religions have an issue of perverts molesting young boys and then being moved to another parish where the molest more kids and then move to another parish where they molest more kids. All I get is, " BUT IT’S A WITCH HUNT!" So, I will state, " It’s ok to molest young boys and then move the molester around to other parishes where he can molest again, but it isn’t ok to bring the pervert to justice for destroying countless lives? Is that what you are saying? " That shut’s them up. ---
**Author:** ![Ellen\_Cherry](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellen_cherry/32/3600_2.png) [@Ellen\_Cherry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ellen_Cherry)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-of-child-abuse-in-ireland-surprise-catholic-church-responsible/497099/5 "2009-05-20T19:32:21Z")
It might shut some people up, but it doesn’t shut me up. By the logic used here, every single Catholic has been sexually molested by every single member of the clergy. And THAT is bullshit. What these clergy did was illegal, immoral and counter to the teachings of Christ. That is inarguable. What they did was indefensible. And what higher-ups did to move priests around, allowing them to molest again, was wrong. They should have been removed, prosecuted, and if found guilty, jailed for their crimes. However, “Aha! I told you so! The church is corrupt and worthless and THIS PROVES IT” is just as much a wrong. You ignore, denigrate and dismiss the thousands of holy men and women who quietly and prayerfully live out their lives following the teachings of Christ and without scandal. You choose the minority and damn the majority. That is wrong. You are entitled to your opinion regarding the damage that the church has done to individuals. But to paint every single faithful member of the clergy and the people who are members of the Catholic Church as the same level of criminal pedophiles … well, you betray your adherance to the very logic that so many here bear as a badge of honor. For me the Catholic Church has never been a den of horror; rather, its served as an instrument of God’s love on Earth. If you want to spew hate-filled bile, please take it to the pit — or if you want to debate, take it to the Great Debates forum. Your attitude isn’t appreciated by a lot of people who don’t agree with your all-inclusive brush. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-of-child-abuse-in-ireland-surprise-catholic-church-responsible/497099/6 "2009-05-20T19:39:19Z")
> [@DMark](#): > > From this [CNN](http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe/05/20/ireland.catholic.report.abuse/?iref=mpstoryview) article. > > As an avowed ex-Catholic, this is just further proof of the hypocrisy of the Catholic Church with regards to what they practice vs. what they preach. > > I am sure someone will say, “Oh, but it is just a few rotten apples…” > Bullshit. The church had seen this, world-wide, for ages and ages and continues to look away; their dirty little secret. > > Luckily, I broke away from this idiotic Roman Catholic Cult when I was about 12 but have seen the psychological pain that many go through - the “Catholic guilt” has ruined many lives - there is even a fringe Gay Catholic organization called “Dignity” that is desperately trying to remain faithful to a church that basically has damned them for all eternity. > > Scientology may be money grubbing nutcases, but at least they don’t go running around abusing children and pretending to be holier-than-thou. For that, the Roman Catholic Church is hands down the evilest of cults, spewing forth homophobia yet allowing their cult members free reign with kids. I wonder if I could sue the church to get the money back I donated as a kid every Sunday. Awesome rant. Pitworthy, even. I think I love you. ---
**Author:** ![mmouse9799](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c2a13f/32.png) [@mmouse9799](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mmouse9799)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-of-child-abuse-in-ireland-surprise-catholic-church-responsible/497099/7 "2009-05-20T19:44:59Z")
Eh… I took the OP’s and **Shirley’s** point as being against the institution of the church itself. Whereas, **Ellen** it sounds to me as though you’re viewing it as a point against every individual in the church. I think you’re all right. Every individual is not involved, and many are doing their best to live genuinely holy lives. However, there is a major problem in the way that these hundreds of abuse cases have been handled by those that knew they were happening-- officials in the Catholic church. Any time there are this many abuse cases coming out of one organization, no matter how large, that signifies a major problem with that organization as a whole. YMMV, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-of-child-abuse-in-ireland-surprise-catholic-church-responsible/497099/8 "2009-05-20T19:45:47Z")
> [@Shirley\_Ujest](#): > > When I calmly and rationally point out that no other organized MAJOR religions have an issue of perverts molesting young boys and then being moved to another parish where the molest more kids and then move to another parish where they molest more kids. > > All I get is, " BUT IT’S A WITCH HUNT!" Listen, I certainly won’t deny the scale of the issue. When I converted to Catholicism more than a decade ago I did so fully aware of all of these matters. But I think you are mistaken that other major religions are free of these problems: > [@](#): > > Complaints of sexual abuse by two United Methodist Church ministers were voiced Saturday from the sidewalk in front of the Adrian College campus where an annual weekend gathering of church leaders in the Detroit Conference was taking place. > > A board member of the national group Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests held a press conference along with a Dearborn Heights man who said his former minister destroyed his marriage and sexually harassed his four daughters. > > After the press conference, SNAP board member Janet Patterson of Kansas walked across the campus to try to hand deliver a letter to Michigan Conference Bishop, Jonathan Keaton. > > She was not able to meet with him. She also passed out copies of her letter to people attending the conference, including to one of the two ministers SNAP is asking the church to take action against. > > Patterson is the mother of a sexual abuse victim who committed suicide nearly six years ago at the age of 29. She said he was abused by their family’s Catholic priest when he was 12 years old. > > “Since my son’s death I’ve become an outspoken advocate for victims of clergy sexual abuse,” she said. > > Patterson said SNAP is asking the Detroit Conference of the United Methodist Church to follow its own policies for dealing with complaints of sexual abuse by having the Rev. Charles Boayue step down as pastor of Second Grace United Methodist Church in Detroit. > > He is being sued by a former church deacon, Joy Veronica Reyes Singer, for alleged sexual abuse in 2003. > > Church officials have not adequately investigated the case, she said. > > “Denial is very, very deadly in this process,” she said. > > The letter from SNAP also asks for suspension of the Rev. Robert Selberg, currently a visitation pastor in the Plymouth United Methodist Church. > > Curt Szajnecki said Saturday he is making his first public complaint against his family’s former minister after a nine-year struggle with the United Methodist Church. He said Selberg sexually harassed his four daughters and caused his wife to divorce him. Selberg then secretly married his wife, Szajnecki said. > > He passed out copies of a Dec. 14 order from Wayne County Probate Court settling a lawsuit on behalf of his 14-year-old daughter against the church for alleged harassment by Selberg from 1997 through 2003. The amount paid by the church’s insurance provider was not revealed. > > A bishop of the Michigan Conference placed Selberg in therapeutic counseling for one year. After the counseling concluded last year, he said, Selberg was transferred to the Plymouth church. Szajnecki said Selberg is in a position to repeat his behavior with other children in a church where members are not aware of his background. [Link.](http://www.snapnetwork.org/news/otherstates/mi_sexabuse_complaints.htm) While this is from an advocacy site, the quoted material is a news story. I left the Methodist Church to become a Catholic, so this interested me. I’ve known some wonderful and spiritual Methodists, and some who weren’t so nice. And frankly I can say the same about the Catholics I know. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-of-child-abuse-in-ireland-surprise-catholic-church-responsible/497099/9 "2009-05-20T19:53:54Z")
> [@Ellen\_Cherry](#): > > It might shut some people up, but it doesn’t shut me up. By the logic used here, every single Catholic has been sexually molested by every single member of the clergy. And THAT is bullshit. > > What these clergy did was illegal, immoral and counter to the teachings of Christ. That is inarguable. What they did was indefensible. And what higher-ups did to move priests around, allowing them to molest again, was wrong. They should have been removed, prosecuted, and if found guilty, jailed for their crimes. > > However, “Aha! I told you so! The church is corrupt and worthless and THIS PROVES IT” is just as much a wrong. You ignore, denigrate and dismiss the thousands of holy men and women who quietly and prayerfully live out their lives following the teachings of Christ and without scandal. You choose the minority and damn the majority. That is wrong. > > You are entitled to your opinion regarding the damage that the church has done to individuals. But to paint every single faithful member of the clergy and the people who are members of the Catholic Church as the same level of criminal pedophiles … well, you betray your adherance to the very logic that so many here bear as a badge of honor. > > For me the Catholic Church has never been a den of horror; rather, its served as an instrument of God’s love on Earth. If you want to spew hate-filled bile, please take it to the pit — or if you want to debate, take it to the Great Debates forum. Your attitude isn’t appreciated by a lot of people who don’t agree with your all-inclusive brush. I don’t think anyone is saying every catholic or even every catholic church is guilty. But it sounds like you’re saying that the level of abuse within the catholic church is comparable to the levels seen in any other institution; religious or not. I don’t believe I’ve ever seen anything that rivals the systematic cover-up of the widespread abuse that is documented or otherwise reported regarding the catholic church. Have you? ---
**Author:** ![Cumberdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@Cumberdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cumberdale)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-of-child-abuse-in-ireland-surprise-catholic-church-responsible/497099/10 "2009-05-20T20:17:22Z")
Another ex Catholic here and this is one of the many reasons I absolutely dispise the Catholic church. They don’t just turn a blind eye and ignore the problem, they actively support it by sending known perverts to other locations once they are discovered so they can continue to destroy young lives. It’s not every Catholic that does this, it is the hierarchy, from the evil head of the church to his evil minions below him. They are so morally bankrupt I wish there was a hell for them to go to after they die. It seems to me that a child would be much safer in a room with a gay atheist than in a room with a Catholic priest. ---
**Author:** ![Shirley\_Ujest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shirley\_Ujest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shirley_Ujest)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-of-child-abuse-in-ireland-surprise-catholic-church-responsible/497099/11 "2009-05-20T21:07:25Z")
My complaint and outrage is against the institution itself. I’ve met countless decent individuals who represent all that is good about their faith. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-of-child-abuse-in-ireland-surprise-catholic-church-responsible/497099/12 "2009-05-20T21:17:06Z")
> [@Cumberdale](#): > > It seems to me that a child would be much safer in a room with a gay atheist than in a room with a Catholic priest. **Sampiro** ’s one hell of a nice guy. ---
**Author:** ![DMark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@DMark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMark)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-of-child-abuse-in-ireland-surprise-catholic-church-responsible/497099/13 "2009-05-20T21:23:29Z")
> [@Shirley\_Ujest](#): > > My complaint and outrage is against the institution itself. > > I’ve met countless decent individuals who represent all that is good about their faith. I think you are referring to those Catholics of convenience…on paper, true believers, but in real life, they are pro-choice, have lots of friends who are Gay and don’t even mind the concept of Gay marriage…sort of like picking and choosing what you like at a buffet. My guess is of those I know who still profess to be “true Roman Catholics”, about 90% feel no qualms about straying from the flock whenever it suits them. They want the Catholic wedding and funeral…otherwise, they don’t feel the need to follow doctrine. Totally unrelated to topic, but congrats on being an SDMB member for 10 years! ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-of-child-abuse-in-ireland-surprise-catholic-church-responsible/497099/14 "2009-05-20T21:47:30Z")
I think this one belongs in the Pit, not MPSIMS. Off we go. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-of-child-abuse-in-ireland-surprise-catholic-church-responsible/497099/15 "2009-05-20T21:57:38Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > I don’t think anyone is saying every catholic or even every catholic church is guilty. But it sounds like you’re saying that the level of abuse within the catholic church is comparable to the levels seen in any other institution; religious or not. I don’t believe I’ve ever seen anything that rivals the systematic cover-up of the widespread abuse that is documented or otherwise reported regarding the catholic church. Have you? I’d love to know about this, too! And I’d like to see a secular company or institution get away with it (well no, I wouldn’t really) – and they don’t even get to tell the molested kids or their suspicious parents that they’re going to burn for all of eternity if they tell! ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-of-child-abuse-in-ireland-surprise-catholic-church-responsible/497099/16 "2009-05-20T22:06:16Z")
I was thinking of starting a thread where one could post counter-examples to common stereotypes. I was going to start with: I spent 8 years in Catholic school, 5 of them as an altar boy. I never saw any corporal punishment, not even a rap on the wrist with a ruler. I never saw, heard, or (definitely) experienced even the remotest suggestion of sexual abuse. I was never made to feel guilty, and was never told I was going to hell. I came out of the experience reasonably well-educated and well-adjusted. Not denying the horrific cases of abuse that are well-documented; just an anecdote to throw on the pile. Meanwhile, in my neck of the woods, in the past few years there have been half a dozen cases of soccer coaches (of both genders) molesting their players. Haven’t heard much hue & cry from victims of Soccer Coach Abuse. ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-of-child-abuse-in-ireland-surprise-catholic-church-responsible/497099/17 "2009-05-20T22:22:20Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > Meanwhile, in my neck of the woods, in the past few years there have been half a dozen cases of soccer coaches (of both genders) molesting their players. Haven’t heard much hue & cry from victims of Soccer Coach Abuse. Maybe that’s because soccer coaches don’t usually hold themselves as above reproach as the authorized spokesmen for god… ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-of-child-abuse-in-ireland-surprise-catholic-church-responsible/497099/18 "2009-05-20T22:24:18Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > I was thinking of starting a thread where one could post counter-examples to common stereotypes. I was going to start with: > > I spent 8 years in Catholic school, 5 of them as an altar boy. I never saw any corporal punishment, not even a rap on the wrist with a ruler. I never saw, heard, or (definitely) experienced even the remotest suggestion of sexual abuse. I was never made to feel guilty, and was never told I was going to hell. I came out of the experience reasonably well-educated and well-adjusted. > > Not denying the horrific cases of abuse that are well-documented; just an anecdote to throw on the pile. > > Meanwhile, in my neck of the woods, in the past few years there have been half a dozen cases of soccer coaches (of both genders) molesting their players. Haven’t heard much hue & cry from victims of Soccer Coach Abuse. How old are you? Much of this abuse happened during the 50s to 80s. Is there a Cardinal Soccer Ball or some other figurehead that plays a shell game with the soccer coaches? If not, then it doesn’t count. ---
**Author:** ![Covered\_In\_Bees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7ab992/32.png) [@Covered\_In\_Bees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Covered_In_Bees)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-of-child-abuse-in-ireland-surprise-catholic-church-responsible/497099/19 "2009-05-20T22:24:45Z")
> [@askeptic](#): > > Maybe that’s because soccer coaches don’t usually hold themselves as above reproach as the authorized spokesmen for god… It’s also likely that the coaches get turned in to the authorities rather than being moved to a new a whole new city to “coach” young boys or girls without anyone in the new city being the wiser as to _why_ this new coach got moved. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-of-child-abuse-in-ireland-surprise-catholic-church-responsible/497099/20 "2009-05-20T22:54:13Z")
I love how the hierarchy is still refusing to name any of the abusers. When people or institutions claim they’re accountable only to God, why do they generally act like they’re accountable to noone? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-of-child-abuse-in-ireland-surprise-catholic-church-responsible/497099.md?page=2)