# Decades Of Child Abuse In Ireland: Surprise - Catholic Church Responsible! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 20, 2009, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-of-child-abuse-in-ireland-surprise-catholic-church-responsible/497099 "2009-05-20T18:54:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-of-child-abuse-in-ireland-surprise-catholic-church-responsible/497099/101 "2009-05-22T16:55:51Z")
> [@EJsGirl](#): > > **Sarahfeena** , I appreciate what you have said, but the institutionalized greed, predatory practices, criminal activity and active cover-up of those behaviors is beyond the “it’s just made up of people, good and bad.” I don’t think so. I think that a corrupt system corrupts- it’s like good cops who turn bad, after being surrounded by bad guys and bad cops. That’s actually pretty much what I was trying to say. My point wasn’t that this is all just one of those things that happens and it’s ok to look the other way, it’s that you have to be vigilant towards ALL institutions that have power over individuals. You can’t assume they will police themselves because the organization purports to do good. (Which is why I brought up the example of the UN.) > [@](#): > > The Catholic Church in Ireland is a corrupt, borderline evil, institution that will never be held accountable for these crimes, and I think it reflects poorly on every single Catholic institution. My Irish Catholic friends (and I have a bunch) have uniformly been heartbroken and outraged by this. I don’t blame them and of course it reflects badly on every Catholic institution, (fairly or unfairly, as of course most had no idea what was going on). > [@](#): > > My husband is/was Catholic, and having a single mom who was raising three kids meant that he spent A LOT of unsupervised time with his parish priest (he was a talented singer and was part of a well-known group). There was never any indication of abuse of the boys when hubby was there, but some vague allegations surfaced later. Hubby was heart-broken but would have denounced Father if credible evidence had come to light. Which I appreciate, and well he should. But that’s denouncing one person for something that person did. I’d denounce my own dad if credible evidence came to light that he did such things. That doesn’t mean I’m going to denounce the institution of fatherhood. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-of-child-abuse-in-ireland-surprise-catholic-church-responsible/497099/102 "2009-05-22T17:13:05Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > I don’t blame them and of course it reflects badly on every Catholic institution, (fairly or unfairly, as of course most had no idea what was going on). I don’t accept the “most had no idea”. This was institutional and deep and also mirrored in other countries like the US. Have a quick look at the executive summary of the report. [http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0521/childabuse-executivesummary.pdf](http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0521/childabuse-executivesummary.pdf) Well after reports were made the stuff kept happening and being covered up. Violence against kids and unquestioned subservience to the church was basically the way Ireland worked. ---
**Author:** ![Cumberdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@Cumberdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cumberdale)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-of-child-abuse-in-ireland-surprise-catholic-church-responsible/497099/103 "2009-05-22T17:19:35Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > I’d denounce my own dad if credible evidence came to light that he did such things. That doesn’t mean I’m going to denounce the institution of fatherhood. But the institution of fatherhood does not actively support such behavior by shielding fathers and moving them to other locations so they can continue damaging people. Is there anything this evil organization can do to make people stand up and say, “ENOUGH”? ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-of-child-abuse-in-ireland-surprise-catholic-church-responsible/497099/104 "2009-05-22T17:34:29Z")
> [@yojimbo](#): > > I don’t accept the “most had no idea”. This was institutional and deep and also mirrored in other countries like the US. > Have a quick look at the executive summary of the report. > > [http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0521/childabuse-executivesummary.pdf](http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0521/childabuse-executivesummary.pdf) > > Well after reports were made the stuff kept happening and being covered up. Violence against kids and unquestioned subservience to the church was basically the way Ireland worked. Right, but what I’m saying is that here in the US, we had no idea what was going on in Ireland, and I’d bet my life that your average priest or even bishops had no clue at all. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-of-child-abuse-in-ireland-surprise-catholic-church-responsible/497099/105 "2009-05-22T17:58:35Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > Right, but what I’m saying is that here in the US, we had no idea what was going on in Ireland, and I’d bet my life that your average priest or even bishops had no clue at all. Perhaps not from country to country, but there is evidence that priests (and nuns) knew about abusers they worked with and who were moved from parish to parish rather than being disciplined. Chances are some of them were among the abusive priests who were moved internationally between Canada, the United States, Ireland, Australia, New Zealand, England and Wales. I imagine there was some overlap if/when priest reoffended in their new parish. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-of-child-abuse-in-ireland-surprise-catholic-church-responsible/497099/106 "2009-05-22T18:01:29Z")
> [@Cat\_Fight](#): > > Perhaps not from country to country, but there is evidence that priests (and nuns) knew about abusers they worked with and who were moved from parish to parish rather than being disciplined. Chances are some of them were among the abusive priests who were moved internationally between Canada, the United States, Ireland, Australia, New Zealand, England and Wales. I imagine there was some overlap if/when priest reoffended in their new parish. So why didn’t someone - anyone - call the cops? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-of-child-abuse-in-ireland-surprise-catholic-church-responsible/497099/107 "2009-05-22T18:15:39Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > So why didn’t someone - anyone - call the cops? Because this was all about _sin_ – not _crime_ – in the eyes of the church, and sins are to be repented and forgiven, not prosecuted. I think the church really believed, and still does, that it is a separate society apart from and not beholden to the laws of secular society. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-of-child-abuse-in-ireland-surprise-catholic-church-responsible/497099/108 "2009-05-22T18:23:18Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Because this was all about _sin_ – not _crime_ – in the eyes of the church, and sins are to be repented and forgiven, not prosecuted. I think the church really believed, and still does, that it is a separate society apart from and not beholden to the laws of secular society. Very true. And not just the church that feels/felt that way I recall reading an interview with a chief of police, in Cincinnati, or perhaps Cleveland in the 1960’s and 70’s. He said it would have been completely unthinkable for him or his men to arrest a priest. Accusations would be ignored when possible, or reported to church authorities when they were too high-profile to ignore. But the gist of it was that the police chief felt he didn’t have the authority to arrest priests. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-of-child-abuse-in-ireland-surprise-catholic-church-responsible/497099/109 "2009-05-22T19:36:45Z")
**Cumberdale** said: > [@](#): > > Now how about you answering some of the questions I asked and have been brought up in this thread. Don’t bother. **Carol Stream** has already demonstrated a reading comprehension problem in this thread. To the extent that she can’t even read an entire sentence. Even when quoting said sentence to defend her misunderstanding. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-of-child-abuse-in-ireland-surprise-catholic-church-responsible/497099/110 "2009-05-22T19:58:39Z")
> [@Cumberdale](#): > > I may not have been clear, but I am talking about different types of abuse. While I was not and don’t believe any of my cohorts were physically abused, I do feel that my faith and trust in the Catholic church and its leaders was abused (for lack of a better word). > > The money I and others gave to the church thinking it would help people and do good was instead used to protect and cover up evil done in the name of the church and by the church. I went to a catholic school for a couple years [kindergarten and first grade] and was punished for using my left had for anything. I spent months with permanent bruising on my left hand from being whacked with a ruler. I can remember having my arm tied behind my back so I couldn’t use it. I also got punished for sloppy handwriting and spilling my lunch. Abuse, Fuck yes. Sexual? No, at least nothing I can remember, and I pretty much remember those years with great detestation.:mad: ---
**Author:** ![tumbleddown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tumbleddown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tumbleddown)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-of-child-abuse-in-ireland-surprise-catholic-church-responsible/497099/111 "2009-05-22T20:00:47Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > I’d denounce my own dad if credible evidence came to light that he did such things. That doesn’t mean I’m going to denounce the institution of fatherhood. Okay, but what if you had credible evidence that your father had committed a serious crime that he was able to commit _because_ he belonged to a particular club. (Let’s say that he was stealing from the building where the club had its meetings.) Now, say that the other club members, especially the elected officers, knew what your father did. They saw him steal, or heard him confess or even brag about his stealing. There was no question amongst them that your father was a thief. But even with that in hand, and knowing that the theft had harmed the owner of the building where they continued to have their regular meetings, they never went to the authorities. And when someone _did_ go to the authorities, your father’s friends lied for him. They told half the story, made up an alibi or made excuses. When the heat got too high, they put together the money and resources so that your father could move out of the area and be out of the reach of the investigation. Pretty much everything that they could do to obstruct justice was done on behalf of your father, maybe because they didn’t think that the theft was so bad, or because they didn’t really care about the building’s owner, or because they didn’t want to lose their meeting place, or because they valued your dad so much, or because they didn’t want the reputation of their club tarnished by having a member arrested for theft. For whatever reason,they put their own interests above the law and justice and what is right. Now imagine that it came to light that they’d done the same thing for another man before, who’d not stolen from the building, but had vandalized it. And for another man before him, who had stolen _and_ vandalized. And one more before that who had stolen, though that one swore it only happened once. (With your father it’d happened a few times. But he was sorry, he really was!) The purpose of this club, by the way, is to make and donate free wheelchairs to handicapped children. Do you denounce your father, the thief? Do you denounce the Wheelchair Charity Club for protecting your father and the men who came before him? ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-of-child-abuse-in-ireland-surprise-catholic-church-responsible/497099/112 "2009-05-22T20:05:17Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Because this was all about _sin_ – not _crime_ – in the eyes of the church, and sins are to be repented and forgiven, not prosecuted. I think the church really believed, and still does, that it is a separate society apart from and not beholden to the laws of secular society. Just wondering if you ever saw the documentary **Deliver us From Evil** , which is all about a priest who sexually abused kids and who just kept getting transferred from one parish or state to another until he was finally packed off to…Ireland. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-of-child-abuse-in-ireland-surprise-catholic-church-responsible/497099/113 "2009-05-22T20:07:13Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > I went to a catholic school for a couple years [kindergarten and first grade] and was punished for using my left had for anything. I spent months with permanent bruising on my left hand from being whacked with a ruler. I can remember having my arm tied behind my back so I couldn’t use it. I also got punished for sloppy handwriting and spilling my lunch. > > Abuse, Fuck yes. My grandma was punished for using her left hand, too, since it was considered wrong. This was in public school. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-of-child-abuse-in-ireland-surprise-catholic-church-responsible/497099/114 "2009-05-22T22:08:29Z")
> [@vivalostwages](#): > > Just wondering if you ever saw the documentary **Deliver us From Evil** , which is all about a priest who sexually abused kids and who just kept getting transferred from one parish or state to another until he was finally packed off to…Ireland. No, never even heard of it. I will keep an eye out. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-of-child-abuse-in-ireland-surprise-catholic-church-responsible/497099/115 "2009-05-22T23:30:20Z")
> [@vivalostwages](#): > > Just wondering if you ever saw the documentary **Deliver us From Evil** , which is all about a priest who sexually abused kids and who just kept getting transferred from one parish or state to another until he was finally packed off to…Ireland. The trailer is [here](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scW90Q6Z_OM&feature=PlayList&p=2E669C2FA8BB50C7&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=39) if anyone wants to check it out. The movie is tragic and will likely make viewers sick to their stomachs. It is sort of pathetic how reading about case after case of sexual abuse can numb a person, but hearing just a handful of personal stories really brings it all back home. One of the things that stood out for me in the doc was seeing a map of all the places one known abuser had been moved. Also, as I mentioned up thread, some abusive priests didn’t get any sort of reprimanding until they targeted boys. One of the female victims is quoted in the trailer as saying that people knew about her abuse, but she was a girl. If she’d been a boy ‘it would have been obscene.’ Really just the tip of the iceberg, though. ---
**Author:** ![Moirai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/96bed5/32.png) [@Moirai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moirai)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-of-child-abuse-in-ireland-surprise-catholic-church-responsible/497099/116 "2009-05-22T23:33:57Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > I’d denounce my own dad if credible evidence came to light that he did such things. That doesn’t mean I’m going to denounce the institution of fatherhood. I would if Fatherhood, Inc., knew full well about abuse and not only did nothing to stop it, but actively covered it up (and continued to foster and encourage the abuse). This is not “just” the actions of a few bad individuals. This is as close to an institutional standard as we are going to get. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2009, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-of-child-abuse-in-ireland-surprise-catholic-church-responsible/497099/117 "2009-05-23T00:25:17Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > **Cumberdale** said: > > Don’t bother. **Carol Stream** has already demonstrated a reading comprehension problem in this thread. To the extent that she can’t even read an entire sentence. Even when quoting said sentence to defend her misunderstanding. She’s been doing that since the day she signed up. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2009, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-of-child-abuse-in-ireland-surprise-catholic-church-responsible/497099/118 "2009-05-23T00:29:01Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > No, never even heard of it. I will keep an eye out. It’s at Blockbuster, so should be easily obtained from Netflix or anywhere else. And the fellow in charge of moving that kiddie-diddling priest around California and parts east was Roger Mahony. His name will be familiar to many. What I can’t fathom is why he isn’t in jail. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2009, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-of-child-abuse-in-ireland-surprise-catholic-church-responsible/497099/119 "2009-05-23T01:21:42Z")
This thread has made me give some thought to the institution of the confessional. By Church doctrine, if one priest learns about another priest’s proclivities through confession, they are ethically and doctrinally bound to keep the knowledge confidential. I believe that many legal jurisdictions have shield laws exempting priests and “spiritual advisors” from revealing the content of confessions in criminal trial. I gotta believe these have made significant contributions to the fucked state of the RCC over the last decades. Even if a complaint comes from the outside, if they confront a priest about accusation and get a confession, they have tied their own hands. It would lead me to think they need to change the rules of confession. Is that one of the “sacraments”? I mean, I know how open the curch is to making rules changes about their core beliefs – not. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2009, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-of-child-abuse-in-ireland-surprise-catholic-church-responsible/497099/120 "2009-05-23T03:15:45Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > This thread has made me give some thought to the institution of the confessional. > > By Church doctrine, if one priest learns about another priest’s proclivities through confession, they are ethically and doctrinally bound to keep the knowledge confidential. > > I believe that many legal jurisdictions have shield laws exempting priests and “spiritual advisors” from revealing the content of confessions in criminal trial. > > I gotta believe these have made significant contributions to the fucked state of the RCC over the last decades. Even if a complaint comes from the outside, if they confront a priest about accusation and get a confession, they have tied their own hands. > > It would lead me to think they need to change the rules of confession. Is that one of the “sacraments”? I mean, I know how open the curch is to making rules changes about their core beliefs – not. I seem to recall that when I brought this up in Sunday school, the response was “Oh, well, of course, a priest would make ‘turn yourself in to secular authorities’ a condition of the penance, so they wouldn’t be right with God without doing so.” That only works if you have a priesthood willing to expel priests once the one who heard the confession reports that the guilty party shouldn’t be serving mass due to not properly receiving the sacrament of confession. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-of-child-abuse-in-ireland-surprise-catholic-church-responsible/497099.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-of-child-abuse-in-ireland-surprise-catholic-church-responsible/497099.md?page=7)