# Decades Of Child Abuse In Ireland: Surprise - Catholic Church Responsible! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 20, 2009, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-of-child-abuse-in-ireland-surprise-catholic-church-responsible/497099 "2009-05-20T18:54:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2009, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-of-child-abuse-in-ireland-surprise-catholic-church-responsible/497099/121 "2009-05-23T03:25:46Z")
> [@Boyo Jim](#): > > Because this was all about sin – not crime – in the eyes of the church, and sins are to be repented and forgiven, not prosecuted. I think the church really believed, and still does, that it is a separate society apart from and not beholden to the laws of secular society. I don’t think the “don’t call the cops” response was solely a matter of the church’s self-image. Decades ago, many people felt that sexual abuse (of any kind, by anybody) was something to be concealed—for the victim’s sake—rather than reported. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2009, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-of-child-abuse-in-ireland-surprise-catholic-church-responsible/497099/122 "2009-05-23T19:07:59Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > I don’t think the “don’t call the cops” response was solely a matter of the church’s self-image. Decades ago, many people felt that sexual abuse (of any kind, by anybody) was something to be concealed—for the victim’s sake—rather than reported. I’m sure that’s true in some cases. But in the church scandal, there were thousands of cases where people DID go ahead and make reports, to the police or the church or both. The powers that be chose to ignore them or cover up the crimes. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2009, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-of-child-abuse-in-ireland-surprise-catholic-church-responsible/497099/123 "2009-05-23T20:25:41Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > I’m sure that’s true in some cases. > > But in the church scandal, there were thousands of cases where people DID go ahead and make reports, to the police or the church or both. The powers that be chose to ignore them or cover up the crimes. I don’t know much (if anything) about Ireland, but in other times and other places, when people no longer felt they could get justice from the law, the government, or the nobles, they would take the matter in their own hands. Isn’t that how we got such charming notions as vendetta, blood feud, vigilantism, etc? I’m not advocating that, but in other places that seemed to occur just enough to be interesting. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2009, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-of-child-abuse-in-ireland-surprise-catholic-church-responsible/497099/124 "2009-05-23T21:19:32Z")
> [@Spavined\_Gelding](#): > > Everything I have read and heard says that the Irish teaching priests, as a class, were notoriously brutal but that there was no remedy or relief save putting your kids in a private, meaning Protestant parochial, school. The class aspect of this shameful affair really needs to be appreciated. The priests in your ordinary “national” school were bad enough but the industrial schools were a whole different order of badness. Many of these children were sent there for no reason other than the poverty of their parents. The abuse they suffered may have been accepted as a normal part of society but it has to be questioned whether that would be the case if it wasn’t for the low social status of the victims. > [@EJsGirl](#): > > Many of the abused were inmates of the Magdalene Asylums or reform schools run by the Christian Brothers and the Sisters of Mercy. The Magdalene victims have been particularly screwed over by the State. Most of them have not been able to obtain compensation because they are deemed to have been in these institutions voluntarily - even though those who escaped were _captured and brought back by the police_. > [@yojimbo](#): > > The RRC basically ran (and to some degree still does) education, children institutions etc. in the State. To quite a large degree in fact, it still runs over 90% of the primary schools here. ---
**Author:** ![Dublin11](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Dublin11](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dublin11)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2009, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-of-child-abuse-in-ireland-surprise-catholic-church-responsible/497099/125 "2009-05-23T23:03:22Z")
In poor countries, the church always has the whip hand. Always. While the whole world is now in recession, Ireland is still a first world country. But it has only been a first world country for a pretty short amount of time. Until the tail end of the 1980s, Ireland was flat stoney broke and in dire financial straits. That’s when the economic growth started and there was massive foreign investment in manufacturing and all the rest of it that went with the economic boom. But, seeing as how the Catholic church had held such a position of power and influence over the law makers and the government and the judiciary and the police in the formative years of the State, you’d be hard pressed at that time to find an average Joe Bloggs Irish person who thought that the priests and nuns and church in general were ever anything other than above reproach. That was the mindset of the ordinary person. And the mindset of the people who were in power, because that’s the way everyone had been raised. Not questions. Go to Mass and Confession and do as you’re told. People who are not Irish, or maybe who are Irish but who are younger than me might find that a bit hard to credit. Here’s a story which might illustrate the point. Social commentators these days more or less acknowledge that this incident marked the start of a new time in Irish life, a time when people began to twig that the church _could_ be looked at with a critical eye. They say that now. But at the time, it was a different story. When I was a teenager in the early 80s there was national outrage - a complete and utter scandal - concerning a woman called Annie Murphy. She was an American woman who had a teenage son. She went on the most watched Irish television programme of the day, The Late Late show to tell her story. Her father’s son was Eamon Casey and he was by that time the Bishop of Galway. He had paid her maintenance for his son out of parish funds. There was a scandal. Uproar in the papers and on the radio and it was all anyone talked about for weeks. The reason it was a scandal was not that Eamon Casey had carried on a sexual relationship with a woman. Nor that he had misappropriated church funds for years and years and years. No, the outrage was that this American hussy was a shameless American harlot who’d brazenly seduced a holy Irish man and had the monumental American cheek to parade her American brazenness and advanced American harlotry on Irish television. Had she no shame? Why did she not just go back to America, where she belonged? (It seemed to be tremendously important that she was an American, as I recall) That’s what people in Ireland were like in the early eighties. The church and the people in its ministry were beyond reproach. It’s no surprise to me that it’s only now we’re having half way proper inquiries into the church. Nothing in the way of proper justice, though. But perhaps that mindset needs another thirty years to come to fruition. When all the guilty parties are well and truly dead. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-of-child-abuse-in-ireland-surprise-catholic-church-responsible/497099/126 "2009-05-24T00:05:25Z")
That Annie Murphy episode was a hatchet job on that woman. It was in '91 though not the 80’s. > [@](#): > > In an episode in 1991 an American woman, Annie Murphy, revealed that she had an affair with Eamon Casey, at the time of his tenure as Bishop of Kerry, in 1973. She also revealed that she had a son by him. She revealed that he had supported her son financially, but had kept requested to keep it quiet to protect his career. This resulted in Casey’s removal from office as Bishop of Galway, and as chairman of several charity organisations. Casey has spent most of his time since then outside of Ireland, in an effort to avoid media attention. Casey himself, was a guest on the show incidentally, on several previous occasions - possibly influencing Byrne’s apparent skepticism of Murphy’s motives and claims on the show. > **[The Late Late Show](https://en-academic.com/dic.nsf/enwiki/121242)** > > infobox television show name = The Late Late Show caption = Pat Kenny interviews Loyalist killer Michael Stone. format = Chat show, Talk show, variety show runtime = 120 minutes per edition | hosts = Gay Byrne (1962 ndash;1967) Frank Hall (1968… ---
**Author:** ![Moirai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/96bed5/32.png) [@Moirai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moirai)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-of-child-abuse-in-ireland-surprise-catholic-church-responsible/497099/127 "2009-05-24T00:09:20Z")
Heh- I have a friend whose son shares first & last name with the good bishop- the story broke when the kid was about 4 months old, but they decided not to change his name since they live in America now and very few people would connect the names. Coincidence but a yucky one. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Dublin11](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Dublin11](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dublin11)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-of-child-abuse-in-ireland-surprise-catholic-church-responsible/497099/128 "2009-05-24T09:23:05Z")
> [@yojimbo](#): > > That Annie Murphy episode was a hatchet job on that woman. It was in '91 though not the 80’s. It was a complete hatchet job, you’re right. I suppose that’s why it was some sort of a turning point in the minds of Irish people. Since Annie Murphy, when some new bad thing comes out about priests’ and nuns’ behaviour the person saying them is believed, not treated with derision. Thanks for the correction on the date. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-of-child-abuse-in-ireland-surprise-catholic-church-responsible/497099/129 "2009-05-24T09:42:48Z")
Nowadays we’d be thankful that he had consensual sex with an adult. How things change over time. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-of-child-abuse-in-ireland-surprise-catholic-church-responsible/497099/130 "2009-05-24T18:34:01Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > I seem to recall that when I brought this up in Sunday school, the response was “Oh, well, of course, a priest would make ‘turn yourself in to secular authorities’ a condition of the penance, so they wouldn’t be right with God without doing so.” > > That only works if you have a priesthood willing to expel priests once the one who heard the confession reports that the guilty party shouldn’t be serving mass due to not properly receiving the sacrament of confession. Nitpick: Altar boys (and in the last generation, in America at least, altar girls) serve Mass. Priests _celebrate_ the Mass. I find it difficult to comprehend the stories of Dopers having had their left-handedness disciplined out of them by the nuns. I heard about it from my mother, who reported that she witnessed it, of course, but I went to Catholic schools from 1961-1974, and it was never tried on me or any of my fellow sinister classmates. It’s incredible to me that it still went on post-1960. I’m no longer a Catholic, but it really has more to do with the fact that of these 12 > [@](#): > > 1. I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth. > 2. I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord. > 3. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. > 4. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. > 5. He descended into hell. On the third day he rose again. > 6. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of God the Father Almighty. > 7. He will come again to judge the living and the dead. > 8. I believe in the Holy Spirit, > 9. the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, > 10. the forgiveness of sins, > 11. the resurrection of the body, > 12. and the life everlasting. I only believe #4. And my belief in that is that it might have actually happened. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-of-child-abuse-in-ireland-surprise-catholic-church-responsible/497099/131 "2009-05-24T18:41:21Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > I find it difficult to comprehend the stories of Dopers having had their left-handedness disciplined out of them by the nuns. I heard about it from my mother, who reported that she witnessed it, of course, but I went to Catholic schools from 1961-1974, and it was never tried on me or any of my fellow sinister classmates. It’s incredible to me that it still went on post-1960. My cousin, who is 40 this year and from Northern Ireland said that the teacher in her primary school asked her parents if they wanted her to write righthanded rather than her natural lefthanded way. This would have been in and around 1974 or '75. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-of-child-abuse-in-ireland-surprise-catholic-church-responsible/497099/132 "2009-05-24T18:45:40Z")
Yah, I guess I should have specified incredulity that it was still going on in America. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-of-child-abuse-in-ireland-surprise-catholic-church-responsible/497099/133 "2009-05-25T05:21:47Z")
Well, I’m left handed and went to 8 years of catholic gradeschool from 1964-72, in the Chicago diocese. While I did get slapped around some, it wasn’t due to trying to force me to be right-handed. They never messed with that – though they tried tying my older sister’s left arm for a while. She is 3 years older. I don’t really know whether they didn’t bother with me because it didn’t work with my sister. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-of-child-abuse-in-ireland-surprise-catholic-church-responsible/497099/134 "2009-05-25T14:48:31Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > I find it difficult to comprehend the stories of Dopers having had their left-handedness disciplined out of them by the nuns. I heard about it from my mother, who reported that she witnessed it, of course, but I went to Catholic schools from 1961-1974, and it was never tried on me or any of my fellow sinister classmates. It’s incredible to me that it still went on post-1960. It didn’t happen in my schools, but I did hear stories from old people (old being relative here, as kids think every adult is pretty old). I guess by my time, people just knew better. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-of-child-abuse-in-ireland-surprise-catholic-church-responsible/497099/135 "2009-05-25T15:32:55Z")
My husband was forced to use his right hand for writing. The end result was him using his right hand but having the worst handwriting I’ve ever seen. He could never manage to relearn using his left, though. He was born in 1960 and went to public school in Louisville. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-of-child-abuse-in-ireland-surprise-catholic-church-responsible/497099/136 "2009-05-25T18:07:12Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > My husband was forced to use his right hand for writing. The end result was him using his right hand but having the worst handwriting I’ve ever seen. He could never manage to relearn using his left, though. He was born in 1960 and went to public school in Louisville. I’d wondered for a while whether I was forced to use my right hand for writing, and my father recently confirmed that my first grade teacher did so. He still thinks it was a good idea, as he believes, quite seriously, that left-handedness is a opening to demon possession. :rolleyes: My handwriting is also abysmal. I was born in '69. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-of-child-abuse-in-ireland-surprise-catholic-church-responsible/497099/137 "2009-05-25T19:27:54Z")
I was born in '56, and was permitted (in a Catholic school, yet!) to let my inner sinister demon possess me. And I have terrible handwriting. And I could never get a fountain pen to make a mark on a piece of paper. So I always used ball-points. Later I learned about left-handed nibs. ---
**Author:** ![Moirai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/96bed5/32.png) [@Moirai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moirai)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-of-child-abuse-in-ireland-surprise-catholic-church-responsible/497099/138 "2009-05-25T20:31:10Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I’d wondered for a while whether I was forced to use my right hand for writing, and my father recently confirmed that my first grade teacher did so. He still thinks it was a good idea, as he believes, quite seriously, that left-handedness is a opening to demon possession. :rolleyes: My handwriting is also abysmal. > > I was born in '69. A friend who was born in 1967 had to get her parents permission to write left-handed in grammar school. :rolleyes: That would have been about 1973. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-of-child-abuse-in-ireland-surprise-catholic-church-responsible/497099/139 "2009-05-25T21:52:30Z")
Abusing children is all well and good - it toughens them up - but abusing left-handers? That’s beyond the pale! Born '69, lefty, never had a problem or was forced to conform, though I heard stories of a great-uncle who was. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-of-child-abuse-in-ireland-surprise-catholic-church-responsible/497099/140 "2009-05-25T22:11:26Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > That’s beyond the pale! It happened within the pale as well 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-of-child-abuse-in-ireland-surprise-catholic-church-responsible/497099.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-of-child-abuse-in-ireland-surprise-catholic-church-responsible/497099.md?page=8)