# decades old mystery **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 15, 2015, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-old-mystery/712704 "2015-02-15T05:14:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2015, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-old-mystery/712704/21 "2015-02-15T14:48:48Z")
> [@Donnerwetter](#): > > BTW, are these open-face toilet seats an American thing? I’ve never seen them in my neck of the woods (central Europe) and when I first travelled to the US, I found them so unusual that I even took a picture. :o I’ve seen them in the UK. Never really stopped to think about why they exist, until now. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2015, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-old-mystery/712704/22 "2015-02-15T15:14:48Z")
> [@vair\_sage](#): > > FYI Kayaker, I wasn’t standing there watching. Rather, I simply walked into the restroom looking for an open stall, and there that clod was, doing his business with the seat down. I was like, “Oh Gawd, how gross!” He quickly announced that he was just finishing, and did. I tend not to be too quick a wit, but as he left the scene of the crime, it would have been the perfect time to say some smart remark to him. He deserved something that would have embarrassed him, yes? Avert your gaze. You were watching. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2015, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-old-mystery/712704/23 "2015-02-15T15:19:12Z")
> [@vair\_sage](#): > > … The oval bowl is indeed a welcome advancement, but one that hasn’t caught on in home applications very fast, sorry to say. And I agree that building codes should be revised accordingly. But then again, I’ve seen oval bowls equipped with an open-face seat, so go figure. Maybe a result of those pesky, outdated building codes? I haven’t seen a round toilet installed in new home construction in maybe 30 years; they’re 100% oval. Maybe rounds are still used in new construction of small apartments. For retrofits to older existing home & apartment bathrooms where rounds were original equipment, you’re often stuck installing a new round since a new oval won’t fit. Either the back-spacing between drain and wall (the “rough-in” in the argot) is sized to an earlier smaller standard not found in current ovals. Or the space in front is too tight for an oval and installing one would foul on the door swing or some other obstacle. And yes, my statement was that IMO commercial building codes generally require U seats as a hold-over from the days of all-round toilets and lack an exemption for oval bowls. ---
**Author:** ![Bert\_Nobbins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/aeb1de/32.png) [@Bert\_Nobbins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bert_Nobbins)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2015, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-old-mystery/712704/24 "2015-02-15T16:26:59Z")
> [@vair\_sage](#): > > I have a solution to the whole mess, and another problem as well. Might as well kill two birds with one stone. And I’m probably going to make somebody rich in the process, because I’m going to give the solution away for free to the first person smart enough to patent the idea. > > Simply make ALL seats such that, unless the lid or somebody was sitting on it, it would be counterweighted such that it would automatically raise itself to the up position. This would solve the problem of clods in the public restrooms from baptizing an unraised seat when they stand to do their deed. It secondly would train everyone to expect the seat to be up, and therefore it would need to be put down for usage. Sorry to rain on your parade, but this idea is not new. I have a Victorian sanitation catalogue which shows just that. Apparently quite a lot of cast-iron was required as a counterweight. It was clumsy and took up a lot of space, and it appears the idea did not thrive. ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2015, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-old-mystery/712704/25 "2015-02-15T19:00:47Z")
Manny manny old guys can not aim down anymore. There is not enough penis sticking out to hold or use to deflect. Round or oval is just a bad under these conditions. The bowls need to be redesigned so there is a raised hood cast into the front of the bowl which catches even straight ahead or even slightly more that level spray, no matter which gender is lacking control. Open face seats would only slightly not be the same height as the front hood of the bowl. The cover seat is easily adjusted to provide clearance to for it. It would be decades for the transition to take place unless it was funded by the government and I think it would be a much better use of monies than 50% of what they do with it now. 🆒 Your range & direction may vary. ( YRDMV ) 😃 ---
**Author:** ![vair\_sage](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@vair\_sage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vair_sage)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2015, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-old-mystery/712704/26 "2015-02-15T21:18:01Z")
All, I guess it’s something that falls into the category of trying to idiot-proof something. I never had the problem they supposedly were trying to find a way around, so I never needed their “solution” to it. Hence I never could understand what they were trying to fix. Then there’s the obsolete codes not having exemptions for “new” designs like the oval bowl. Chalk that one up to lack of government foresight or keeping regulations current. Certainly even better designs can be invented, but we’d still need the regulations updated. it all adds up to what I consider an unnecessary solution to (in my case) an all but non-existent problem, one that only succeeds in annoying people that don’t need it. I may be in the minority on that, but any solution to a situation that doesn’t cover every possibility is an imperfect solution. I find it odd that a dirty chunk of exposed bowl would be preferable to a full seat with a dirty front section. Neither is what I’d call satisfactory, so why even bother with the open-face design? Thanks for everybody’s feedback in helping me understand this decades-old mystery for me. Everyone’s input was great. ---
**Author:** ![Gbro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Gbro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gbro)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2015, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-old-mystery/712704/27 "2015-02-15T22:30:07Z")
I have no idea if my rational for changing my seat to the very handy open front seat is the same as others, but in my household there was 4 females and once upon a time they were all menstruating. I wound find blood on my junk very very often. Replacing the seat with the open front absolutely solved that common occurrence. When Mrs. Gbro asked why I changed it she understood and also confessed that she thought it was my fault that there was very often urine spots on the underside of the seat in the front. I also am knowledgeable of the fact some men are not gifted equal like GusN… posted and its not just about getting old. Being an EMT for 35 years and just finished recertifying for another 2 years we are called upon to assist and help in many odd and troubling times. Some men have to use a urinal, or cath because of anatomy or dysfunction issues. One such disabled was very happy when I changed his seat out to the open front one, and when the seat is retired from normal service it can be re-tasked to become a very nice frame for the family portraits. your favorite bowtie will be visible in your picture. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![No\_umlaut\_for\_U](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ea5d25/32.png) [@No\_umlaut\_for\_U](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/No_umlaut_for_U)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2015, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-old-mystery/712704/28 "2015-02-16T00:56:54Z")
I had always been told that if the seat fell down when a man was urinating, the break in the seat would miss the wedding tackle. ---
**Author:** ![Honey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honey/32/5074_2.png) [@Honey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honey)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2015, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-old-mystery/712704/29 "2015-02-16T01:30:43Z")
Sorry, this is a little hijack. I have never understood why women complain about men not putting the seat back down. So what if I have to put it down before I use it. It seems only fair. He puts it up, and I put it down. Why do people fight about this? ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2015, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-old-mystery/712704/30 "2015-02-16T01:44:37Z")
> [@Honey](#): > > Sorry, this is a little hijack. I have never understood why women complain about men not putting the seat back down. So what if I have to put it down before I use it. It seems only fair. He puts it up, and I put it down. Why do people fight about this? Because if a woman is accustomed to an environment where the the seat is never up (female-only), she gets used to sitting down without looking first. Then if the seat is up and she forgets to check, it’s a bit of a shock when she lands on porcelain, water or worse. (sing to the tune of "Blowing in the Wind): How many nights will he leave the seat up, So I land on cold porcelain… [Chenille Sisters](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krozHrwxohI) ---
**Author:** ![Kropotkin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kropotkin/32/18045_2.png) [@Kropotkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kropotkin)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2015, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-old-mystery/712704/31 "2015-02-16T02:10:40Z")
What Musicat said. Also, night visits. The issue is about potential consequences. There is no bad consequence, gentlemen, to putting the seat down, and there is much good karma. Leaving it up can result in dire consequences, including getting smacked upside the head with the toilet brush. I speak from experience. ---
**Author:** ![vair\_sage](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@vair\_sage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vair_sage)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2015, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-old-mystery/712704/32 "2015-02-16T03:02:43Z")
Musicat and Kropotkin, as a man I can understand about sitting down on the bowl, as I’ve done it on at least two occasions that I can remember, and I agree that it’s no fun. I completely sympathize with you on that point. But as I previously said, I have no one to blame but myself. And I have no problem with accepting that blame. The problem stems from the fact that, while it’s a courtesy to the woman, she can’t return the favor. She always uses it with the seat down, but even a man cannot say for sure whether he’ll need the seat up or down on his next visit. He’s trained since potty training to expect to have to do SOMEthing with the seat at least half the time he steps into the bathroom. So he has no problem with whatever position it’s left in. A woman never gets that training, so she’s conditioned to expect it in ONE position, down. The REAL problem is that too many women refuse to accept responsibility for their own actions, like a man does, but instead pawns off that responsibility onto the man, blaming him unfairly when disaster happens to herself. Most men, in order to keep peace, meekly accept the blame. It’s why I suggested counterweighting the seat so that it automatically raises itself. Given that situation, she would by necessity retrain herself to expect it to be up, and therefore always put it down before sitting down. It’s all a matter of training, not blaming the man for being discourteous. Or should be. I know this will probably irritate a lot of women, but think about it, ladies. Sure, it’s a courtesy, but courtesies by definition should be optional and not an expected certainty. If a man leaves the seat down, great. But it shouldn’t necessarily be expected every time. In other words, be responsible for your own actions, like you expect the man to be. Fair enough? ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2015, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-old-mystery/712704/33 "2015-02-16T03:23:44Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Because if a woman is accustomed to an environment where the the seat is never up (female-only), she gets used to sitting down without looking first. Then if the seat is up and she forgets to check, it’s a bit of a shock when she lands on porcelain, water or worse. My mother was one of five sisters, and no brothers. I once heard her remark that until she was grown up, she _didn’t even know_ that the toilet seat could be lifted up. She had never seen it that way. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2015, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-old-mystery/712704/34 "2015-02-16T03:31:48Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > My mother was one of five sisters, and no brothers. I once heard her remark that until she was grown up, she _didn’t even know_ that the toilet seat could be lifted up. She had never seen it that way. She never had to clean the toilet? ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2015, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-old-mystery/712704/35 "2015-02-16T03:37:31Z")
While we’re on the subject… Our family vacationed for many years in a small, rustic cottage. The only bathroom was in the center of the building, and had a single, small, dingy window in the shower that looked out to the dark porch. The only light was a bare bulb with a pull chain. My grandmother once went to use the bathroom, and in one swift, practiced motion, pulled down her pants to sit on the toilet while closing the door with her other hand. She could grab the pull chain later. But there was already someone there, my mother. Granny let out a scream when her ass made contact…“Emmy! Don’t you ever close the door?!?” ---
**Author:** ![Kropotkin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kropotkin/32/18045_2.png) [@Kropotkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kropotkin)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2015, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-old-mystery/712704/36 "2015-02-16T04:33:40Z")
> [@vair\_sage](#): > > Musicat and Kropotkin, as a man I can understand about sitting down on the bowl, as I’ve done it on at least two occasions that I can remember, and I agree that it’s no fun. I completely sympathize with you on that point. But as I previously said, I have no one to blame but myself. And I have no problem with accepting that blame. > > The problem stems from the fact that, while it’s a courtesy to the woman, she can’t return the favor. She always uses it with the seat down, but even a man cannot say for sure whether he’ll need the seat up or down on his next visit. He’s trained since potty training to expect to have to do SOMEthing with the seat at least half the time he steps into the bathroom. So he has no problem with whatever position it’s left in. A woman never gets that training, so she’s conditioned to expect it in ONE position, down. > > The REAL problem is that too many women refuse to accept responsibility for their own actions, like a man does, but instead pawns off that responsibility onto the man, blaming him unfairly when disaster happens to herself. Most men, in order to keep peace, meekly accept the blame. > > It’s why I suggested counterweighting the seat so that it automatically raises itself. Given that situation, she would by necessity retrain herself to expect it to be up, and therefore always put it down before sitting down. It’s all a matter of training, not blaming the man for being discourteous. Or should be. > > I know this will probably irritate a lot of women, but think about it, ladies. Sure, it’s a courtesy, but courtesies by definition should be optional and not an expected certainty. If a man leaves the seat down, great. But it shouldn’t necessarily be expected every time. In other words, be responsible for your own actions, like you expect the man to be. Fair enough? As a man, I repeat, the consequences matter, and the trifling matter of putting the seat down is nothing compared to the consequence of being in part responsible for someone getting the icy rim or worse. It is a precaution and a courtesy I am happy to extend to the women in my life and to women everywhere. It ain’t like I’m overturning generations of sexism here, but it is a start. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2015, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-old-mystery/712704/37 "2015-02-16T05:18:19Z")
Single male living alone here, and yet… and yet… I ALWAYS put the seat AND the lid down when done! Why? I hear you ask. Well, I’m always afraid that if I leave the lid and/or seat up, someday it will fall down of its own accord in the middle of the night (earthquakes or poltergeists would do that), making a timber-rattling **BANG** that wakes up the whole neighborhood. Living alone means there would be nobody there to scrape me off the ceiling. (And if there was, who would scrape that person off the ceiling?) So I always put lid and seat down, just to be sure. ---
**Author:** ![vair\_sage](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@vair\_sage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vair_sage)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2015, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-old-mystery/712704/38 "2015-02-16T10:51:20Z")
Like I said, Kropotkin, it IS a courtesy. And as you point out, a trifling matter at that. But that still doesn’t negate the fact that your female companion(s) are spoiled by their prior training. Unfair to you, but something that you gladly accept. Good for you, man. Women often complain about unequal treatment, and rightly so. But if they want equality, why not start with the toilet seat, and train ALL our children, male and female, alike? Boys are trained to accept the responsibility of the seat position, simply because they cannot predict which way they’re going to need it on their next visit, why not train the girls the same as well? Fair enough? I’ll also point out that boys need to be trained to ALWAYS put the seat up when they are going to stand and pee. The practice some guys have of not doing this is gross beyond belief. I myself was raised right, and only ran into this as an adult. The incident at work that I previously cited I found to be shocking and unbelievable. It explains why I’ve often come across so many baptized seats in public restrooms. Gross, guys, and something you need to address. I also will offer another suggestion. Where is it written that a seat needs to be the same color as the bowl? Why not have it a contrasting color? If your bowl is white, have a black or colored seat. For a beige bowl, have a chocolate seat. Besides providing a better indication of seat position at a glance, it would be a decorator accent. Something that is not only an attractive touch, but may save some poor soul from a late night accident. Just a thought, there. But no matter how one resolves the matter, I still think that there is no valid reason seat position should be a complaint at all, let alone be THE biggest complaint women have about men’s bathroom habits. Courtesies aside, the real issue is one of refusing to accept personal responsibility for one’s actions, shoveling blame off onto others, and the unequal training of children. It’s a tempest in a teapot, and an unnecessary one at that. Incidentally, I’m like senegoid and leave the seat (and lid) down, because I have an over-the-commode cabinet. So having the lid closed is protection against dropping something out of the cabinet into the drink. To each his own! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decades-old-mystery/712704.md?page=1)