# DECEMBER 25th CHRISTMAS QUESTION **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [December 28, 2003, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/december-25th-christmas-question/221389 "2003-12-28T07:17:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![APB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@APB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/APB)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2004, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/december-25th-christmas-question/221389/61 "2004-01-31T14:29:26Z")
Actually, **RM** , you are still missing the point, because [the difference between the Gregorian year and the tropical year](http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/astronomy/Year.html) is not the same as the difference between the [tropical year](http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/astronomy/TropicalYear.html) and the [sidereal year](http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/astronomy/SiderealYear.html), which is what gives rise to the difference between the tropical Zodiac and the sidereal Zodiac. ---
**Author:** ![RM\_Mentock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e274bd/32.png) [@RM\_Mentock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RM_Mentock)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2004, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/december-25th-christmas-question/221389/62 "2004-01-31T18:42:33Z")
> [@APB](#): > > Actually, **RM** , you are still missing the point, because [the difference between the Gregorian year and the tropical year](http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/astronomy/Year.html) is not the same as the difference between the [tropical year](http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/astronomy/TropicalYear.html) and the [sidereal year](http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/astronomy/SiderealYear.html), which is what gives rise to the difference between the tropical Zodiac and the sidereal Zodiac. What does the difference between the Gregorian year and the tropical year have to do with it? O, you may be thinking of Dex’s post in that regard, not mine. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2004, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/december-25th-christmas-question/221389/63 "2004-02-01T21:08:21Z")
> [@](#): > > The positions of the zodiac and the planets, as seen from Earth, on my girls’ birthday (late December) are not the same as that for Jesus’ nominal birthday, so why do they have the same sign and nearly similar astrological readings? Not to defend astrology, but this part isn’t as illogical as it may seem. By the old definition of “planet” (anything which doesn’t stay in the same relative position in the sky), the Sun was the most important of the planets. Accordingly, in astrology, the position of the Sun is the strongest of the influences or indicators, and two people born on the same date will have the Sun in the same sign, even if they’re years apart. Well, other than that bit about precession. As I understand it, the Moon sign and the House Rising (which can be considered to be Earth’s contribution to astronomical effects) are the next most important, but you need to know your time of birth to within a couple of hours in order to get the House Rising, so that one’s not used as much. ---
**Author:** ![SlowMindThinking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@SlowMindThinking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlowMindThinking)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2004, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/december-25th-christmas-question/221389/64 "2004-02-04T15:03:04Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Not to defend astrology, but this part isn’t as illogical as it may seem. By the old definition of “planet” (anything which doesn’t stay in the same relative position in the sky), the Sun was the most important of the planets. Accordingly, in astrology, the position of the Sun is the strongest of the influences or indicators, and two people born on the same date will have the Sun in the same sign, even if they’re years apart. Well, other than that bit about precession. … As the above discussion indicates, precession has had a significant affect in the ensuing 2000 years, let alone the several thousands of years that some form of astrology has been practiced somewhere. (Let us never forget that the Romans were advanced enough not to rely on astrology. They read livers.) The non-Keplerian behavior of the earth’s orbit ought to be accounted for, at least for the orbital elements out of the earth’s orbital plane. I believe the longest period is 100,000 years (for the eccentricity), and 10,000 years is a reasonable chunck fo that. Heck, over that time period even the relative motion of the nearer stars ought to matter. ---
**Author:** ![SlowMindThinking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@SlowMindThinking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlowMindThinking)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2004, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/december-25th-christmas-question/221389/65 "2004-02-04T15:07:08Z")
Sorry for the typos above, I have trouble simultaneously typing and talking to coworkers. On the plus side, it keeps me from being long winded. ---
**Author:** ![plannity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/aca169/32.png) [@plannity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/plannity)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2004, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/december-25th-christmas-question/221389/66 "2004-04-04T17:49:31Z")
> [@John W. Kennedy](#): > > I don’t have to. You’re the one making the affirmative statement; you’re the one who has to prove it. Yeah? Well, my dad can beat up your dad. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2004, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/december-25th-christmas-question/221389/67 "2004-04-05T04:54:36Z")
> [@Anai\_Bendai](#): > > Although Cecil was right that Christmas is observed on December 25th because it was originally a pagan solstice holiday designated to celebrate the birth of Sol Invictus - he kind of flubbed up on the Pisces part of the answer. Actually, he said nothing of the sort. What he really said was “Nobody knows exactly why Christ’s birthday is celebrated on December 25th”. Cece then goes on to list a variety of theories. Xmas wasn’t set to Saturnalia as Saturnalia wasn’t on Dec 25th- it was on Dec 22 or 23rd. It also could _NOT_ have been “originally a pagan solstice holiday to celebrate the birth of Sol Invictus”- as Roman Mitraism does not predate Christianity- Christianity came _before_ Roman Mitraism. Modern Archeolgists have now “dug up” some solid info on that Mystery Religion. Once you know what _archeologists_ now know about Roman Mitraism, you can forget what all the “new age writers” made up about Christianity copying from Mitraism. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2004, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/december-25th-christmas-question/221389/68 "2004-04-05T05:56:29Z")
I don’t believe that the Catholic Church only has “scraps” of ancient Bible manuscripts. Apparently, in the17th Century, the Church acquired a manuscript now know as _Codex Vaticanus,_ unless I misspelled it. _They_ did not preserve it until that time; no valuable Bible manuscripts have ever been found in Catholic lands. And until the 19th Century the Church would not permit non-Catholic scholars to examin the manuscript, usually known now as “B.” Only when the _Codex Sinaiticus_ (usually identified with the Hebrew “Aleph”) did the Church publish facsmilie copies of “B,” to keep it from being eclipsed. There’s also a comment on ancient artifacts (spurred by ther mention that the Greeks, or the Egyptians, knew about procession of the equinoxes) in the book _Secret of the Hittites,_ in the chapter “The Science of Historical Dating”: “Anyone approaching the study of ancient history for the first time must be impressed by the positive way modern historians date events which took place thousands of years ago. In the course of further study this wonder will, if anything, increase. For as we examine the sources of ancient history we see how scanty, inaccurate, or downright false, the records were even at the time they were first written. And poor as they originally were, they are poorer still as they have come down to us: half destroyed by the tooth of time or by the carelessness and rough usage of men.” p. 134. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/december-25th-christmas-question/221389.md?page=3)