# December 8, 1941: U.S. sues for peace, what happens? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 18, 2010, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/december-8-1941-u-s-sues-for-peace-what-happens/532822 "2010-03-18T00:38:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2010, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/december-8-1941-u-s-sues-for-peace-what-happens/532822/21 "2010-03-18T11:29:39Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Not voting for war after Pearl Harbor would have been political suicide for most of those involved, and may even have lead to a Second Revolution. The American public is not going to allow a sneak attack to go unavenged. It was for all of those who voted no historically - or well, the one who voted no, [Rep. Jeannette Rankin (R-MT)](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeannette_Rankin) didn’t seek reelection for another term. You pretty much have to respect her sticking to her hmmm… not-guns though, she was a lifelong dedicated pacifist and had also voted no in 1917 on the declaration of war with Germany in WW1, albeit she was one of 50 no votes on that. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2010, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/december-8-1941-u-s-sues-for-peace-what-happens/532822/22 "2010-03-18T12:46:25Z")
Let’s pretend the USA had sued for peace on December 8, 1941. Why on earth would Japan accept it? Blowing up a few ships at Pearl Harbor wasn’t Japan’s war aim; Pearl Harbor was part of an ocean-wide offensive. Japan’s aim in attacking the Allies was to conquer the resource-rick parts of the southwest Pacific - the Philippines, Borneo, Java, New Guinea, et al. Japan would have quite happily accepted a peace deal after accomplishing THOSE things, so if the Allies had honestly offered peace in, say, mid-1941, Japan would have gladly taken it, kept the resources, and then turned their attention back to the real target: China. ---
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2010, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/december-8-1941-u-s-sues-for-peace-what-happens/532822/23 "2010-03-18T13:05:36Z")
Re your third point about the USA staying defensive and building resources- I don’t think it was necessary. If the First Carrier Striking Force had managed to sink every single unit in the US Pacific Fleet, including the carriers, at the outbreak of the war, and then the Imperial Navy had not lost a single ship over the next 30 months, they still would not have been able to offer battle on numerical equality at the Phillippine Sea in 1944 (Pearl Harbour by Wilmott). ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2010, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/december-8-1941-u-s-sues-for-peace-what-happens/532822/24 "2010-03-18T13:36:13Z")
> [@Cicero](#): > > Re your third point about the USA staying defensive and building resources- I don’t think it was necessary. If the First Carrier Striking Force had managed to sink every single unit in the US Pacific Fleet, including the carriers, at the outbreak of the war, and then the Imperial Navy had not lost a single ship over the next 30 months, they still would not have been able to offer battle on numerical equality at the Phillippine Sea in 1944 (Pearl Harbour by Wilmott). Nitpick; Wilmott’s book is titled Pearl Harbor. The naval base near Honolulu is spelled “Pearl Harbor” even if you’re from Australia or, like me, Canada. “Pearl Harbor” is a proper name, not a common noun, and the only correct spelling is the American form. Again, just a nitpick. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2010, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/december-8-1941-u-s-sues-for-peace-what-happens/532822/25 "2010-03-18T15:12:41Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Nitpick; Wilmott’s book is titled Pearl Harbor. The naval base near Honolulu is spelled “Pearl Harbor” even if you’re from Australia or, like me, Canada. “Pearl Harbor” is a proper name, not a common noun, and the only correct spelling is the American form. > > Again, just a nitpick. Good point, and one I wish people on both sides of the ocean would pay attention to. Leftish Brits and Aussies vote Labour; the Queen puts out an Honours List. Those are the names, and the fact that what we in the US would term labor and honors are being referenced, does not make using the American spelling correct. But it works the other way, too: “Pearl Harbour” is somewhere on the northern coast of Australia, has a population of 11 people and a dog, and the dog is packing to leave. The big American Naval base is at Pearl Harbor with no U. (If you think about it, it’s just another minor application of the Golden Rule.) ---
**Author:** ![penultima\_thule](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penultima_thule/32/3833_2.png) [@penultima\_thule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/penultima_thule)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2010, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/december-8-1941-u-s-sues-for-peace-what-happens/532822/26 "2010-03-18T21:59:14Z")
Alas, leftist Aussies may labour in their blue collar vocations, pine for the return of the Builders Labourers Union to represent them, take a day off for Labour Day on 4th October 2010 (NSW), but on polling day they vote Labor. ---
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/december-8-1941-u-s-sues-for-peace-what-happens/532822/27 "2010-03-19T00:17:13Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Nitpick; Wilmott’s book is titled Pearl Harbor. The naval base near Honolulu is spelled “Pearl Harbor” even if you’re from Australia or, like me, Canada. “Pearl Harbor” is a proper name, not a common noun, and the only correct spelling is the American form. > > Again, just a nitpick. Nitpick. The book “Pearl Harbor” is by Willmott, not Wilmott. Have a nice day. 😃 (I realise I didn’t spell it correctly). ---
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/december-8-1941-u-s-sues-for-peace-what-happens/532822/28 "2010-03-19T00:22:06Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Good point, and one I wish people on both sides of the ocean would pay attention to. Leftish Brits and Aussies vote Labour; the Queen puts out an Honours List. Those are the names, and the fact that what we in the US would term labor and honors are being referenced, does not make using the American spelling correct. But it works the other way, too: “Pearl Harbour” is somewhere on the northern coast of Australia, has a population of 11 people and a dog, and the dog is packing to leave. The big American Naval base is at Pearl Harbor with no U. (If you think about it, it’s just another minor application of the Golden Rule.) As **penultima thule** correctly points out we “may” vote for Labor with no U. Thanks for exposing my lack of clarity with your own example. ---
**Author:** ![Ispolkom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e47774/32.png) [@Ispolkom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ispolkom)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/december-8-1941-u-s-sues-for-peace-what-happens/532822/29 "2010-03-19T00:29:57Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > Suppose Germany had not declared war on the US after Pearl Harbor? Would Congress have hesitated to declare war on Germany? The German declaration certainly made things easier, but we were already in a quasi-war with Germany by December 1941. The U.S. Navy was hunting German subs and being sunk by them. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/december-8-1941-u-s-sues-for-peace-what-happens/532822/30 "2010-03-19T07:43:57Z")
I can’t resist this - from the Nick Danger side, by Firesign Theatre: > [@](#): > > ANNOUNCER > > Ladies and gentlemen, we interrupt this scheduled transmission to bring you an announcement of national importance from the White House in Washington D.C. Ladies and gentlemen? Ladies and gentlemen, the President of the United States. > > PRESIDENT > > My fellow Americans - this morning at 6:25 AM Pacific Standard Time, combined elements of the Imperial Japanese Navy and Air forces ruthlessly attacked our naval base at Pearl Harbor, in the Hawaiian Islands. I have conferred this morning with the congress and the chiefs of staff in emergency session, we have reached our rendezvous with destiny. It is our unanimous and irrevocable decision that the United States of America …unconditionally surrender. And now my wife and I would like to return with you for the thrilling conclusion of Private Nick Danger, Third Eye. ---
**Author:** ![code\_grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@code\_grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/code_grey)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/december-8-1941-u-s-sues-for-peace-what-happens/532822/31 "2010-03-22T00:03:02Z")
contrary to the view of **Markxxx** , no, Japan was not getting its oil from Indonesia. They were getting it from America, plus some oil from the island of Sakhalin. And the reason why they started the war and grabbed Indonesia was because America stopped selling them oil. If this embargo were removed amicably (whether in peace or after an undecisive, limited military conflict) why would have Japan risked a huge war against industrially superior America? Why fight for the “resources” when you can just buy them on open market? ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/december-8-1941-u-s-sues-for-peace-what-happens/532822/32 "2010-03-22T08:21:31Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Nitpick; Wilmott’s book is titled Pearl Harbor. The naval base near Honolulu is spelled “Pearl Harbor” even if you’re from Australia or, like me, Canada. “Pearl Harbor” is a proper name, not a common noun, and the only correct spelling is the American form. Ah, but it’s only called “Pearl Harbor” because it’s in America and they use American English. If you’re from a country where they use proper English then it’s “Pearl Harbour”, since “Harbour” is spelt with a “U” in Commonwealth English then _that_’s the correct spelling for anyone in the Commonwealth. 😉 Don’t worry, I’m just having a bit of fun with you 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/december-8-1941-u-s-sues-for-peace-what-happens/532822/33 "2010-03-22T16:46:16Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Good point, and one I wish people on both sides of the ocean would pay attention to. Leftish Brits and Aussies vote Labour; the Queen puts out an Honours List. Those are the names, and the fact that what we in the US would term labor and honors are being referenced, does not make using the American spelling correct. But it works the other way, too: “Pearl Harbour” is somewhere on the northern coast of Australia, has a population of 11 people and a dog, and the dog is packing to leave. The big American Naval base is at Pearl Harbor with no U. (If you think about it, it’s just another minor application of the Golden Rule.) no u ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/december-8-1941-u-s-sues-for-peace-what-happens/532822/34 "2010-03-22T20:09:52Z")
> [@](#): > > contrary to the view of Markxxx, no, Japan was not getting its oil from Indonesia. They were getting it from America, plus some oil from the island of Sakhalin. And the reason why they started the war and grabbed Indonesia was because America stopped selling them oil. If this embargo were removed amicably (whether in peace or after an undecisive, limited military conflict) why would have Japan risked a huge war against industrially superior America? Why fight for the “resources” when you can just buy them on open market? A nitpick but it wasn’t just oil being embargoed. The United States prohibited the sale to Japan of oil, scrap metal, aircraft or aircraft parts, aviation fuel, munitions, machine tools, iron and steel, cotton, and other products. The United Kingdom and the Netherlands had joined the American embargo. Presumedly Japan would have wanted all of these economic prohibitions lifted. ---
**Author:** ![Snnipe\_70E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2010, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/december-8-1941-u-s-sues-for-peace-what-happens/532822/35 "2010-03-23T01:11:29Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > A nitpick but it wasn’t just oil being embargoed. The United States prohibited the sale to Japan of oil, **scrap metal** , aircraft or aircraft parts, aviation fuel, munitions, machine tools, iron and steel, cotton, and other products. The United Kingdom and the Netherlands had joined the American embargo. Presumedly Japan would have wanted all of these economic prohibitions lifted. The scrap metal embargo was not very effective. My dad noticed that in the law embargoing “scrap metal”, scrap metal was defined as any used piece of metal over 6 feet in lenght. From shipping he knew that scrap metal is cut into pieces 6 feet or less. I can not give you a link, it was one of the things that dad use to laugh about. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2010, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/december-8-1941-u-s-sues-for-peace-what-happens/532822/36 "2010-03-23T02:28:55Z")
Uhm. Lemme put it this way, Snnipe? My grandpa sold a lot of ‘scrap metal’ to Israel. It wasn’t cut up. It was used. By the US. As weapons. Blocking that ‘scrap metal’ blocked heavy machinery of all sorts from going to Japan through a loophole. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2010, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/december-8-1941-u-s-sues-for-peace-what-happens/532822/37 "2010-03-23T02:38:06Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Not voting for war after Pearl Harbor would have been political suicide for most of those involved, and may even have lead to a Second Revolution. The American public is not going to allow a sneak attack to go unavenged. Sue for peace on December 8th and there would have been lynchings in Washington on December 9th [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/december-8-1941-u-s-sues-for-peace-what-happens/532822.md?page=1)