# December: Blog Spotter Extraordinaire & Tireless Informer on Sins of Liberals, etc **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 8, 2003, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/december-blog-spotter-extraordinaire-tireless-informer-on-sins-of-liberals-etc/173899 "2003-05-08T14:33:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/december-blog-spotter-extraordinaire-tireless-informer-on-sins-of-liberals-etc/173899/341 "2003-05-16T04:34:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by London\_Calling \* > I \*speculated \*after a few others mused (in this thread) over why **december** hasn’t been banned. Fact is, it’s incongruous to many that he remains a member while someone like, say, **Wildest Bill** got banned. It’s only incongruous if you are thinking of the content of their opinions, as opposed to their breaking of the rules. As many wild-assed, idiotic threads that WB started, he was not banned for being a wild-ass idiot. He was banned for repeatedly starting political threads in General Questions. I’m quite sure that if december were stupid enough to start his liberal-bashing threads in General Questions, he’d be out of here in no time. Fact is, you can be as ridiculous as you want in Great Debates, when it come to personal opinions. And while december’s personal opinions are borderline insane (no offense, **d** , ya know I love ya 🙂 ), he does not violate the rules of the forum. ---
**Author:** ![Mandelstam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Mandelstam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mandelstam)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/december-blog-spotter-extraordinaire-tireless-informer-on-sins-of-liberals-etc/173899/342 "2003-05-16T04:39:34Z")
**Jack** , I think **L\_C** deserves a bit more time before anyone makes any assumptions. We all sometimes have lives away from our computers. Maybe he has a date. Or maybe he’s just taking some time away from this thread. **Milroy** : Are you suggesting that the US invade Zimbabwe, Sudan, Angola, Ethiopia, and Syria? Gosh, this is better than _Xmen2_. :rolleyes: Yeah, I’m really in my ivory tower alright. ---
**Author:** ![Ace\_Face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/858c86/32.png) [@Ace\_Face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ace_Face)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/december-blog-spotter-extraordinaire-tireless-informer-on-sins-of-liberals-etc/173899/343 "2003-05-16T04:44:13Z")
> [@](#): > > **Mandelstam** , your concern for oppressed people seems to depend more on who is oppressing them than on how badly oppressed they are. \*\* Well, speaking for myself, I am more concerned oppression caused by the US than oppression caused by other countries – because, as an American, I bear a higher degree of _responsibility_ for any such oppression. It’s one thing if you stand by and watch a thug beat up an helpless victim. It’s another thing entirely if _you_ are the thug. I would argue “you” have certain moral responsibilities in each situation – but clearly these are greater in the second. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/december-blog-spotter-extraordinaire-tireless-informer-on-sins-of-liberals-etc/173899/344 "2003-05-16T06:46:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mandelstam \* > \*\ ***Milroy** : Are you suggesting that the US invade Zimbabwe, Sudan, Angola, Ethiopia, and Syria? Gosh, this is better than _Xmen2_. > > :rolleyes: Yeah, I’m really in my ivory tower alright. \*\* I’m suggesting that the U.S. did the right thing in ending the oppressive Taliban and Saddam regimes. What do you suggest, other than going to lectures? ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/december-blog-spotter-extraordinaire-tireless-informer-on-sins-of-liberals-etc/173899/345 "2003-05-16T08:04:17Z")
So, **milroyj** , what are _you_ personally doing to stop oppression across the globe? “I vote Republican” doesn’t count as an answer, by the way. What do YOU do? ---
**Author:** ![Mandelstam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Mandelstam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mandelstam)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/december-blog-spotter-extraordinaire-tireless-informer-on-sins-of-liberals-etc/173899/346 "2003-05-16T08:26:38Z")
**milroyj** : _“I’m suggesting that the U.S. did the right thing in ending the oppressive Taliban and Saddam regimes. What do you suggest, other than going to lectures?”_ 😕 And _I’m_ suggesting that you either stop posting in an altered state or learn to read English. **december** asked me a question–deluded though it was–about my _personal concerns_, not my beliefs about _foreign policy or defense_. When I am “concerned” about a human rights problem I educate myself about it by, among other things, reading books and going to lectures. To be honest, I could care less what you do because this is a complete digression from the topic at hand. You have _no idea_ what I think of US foreign policy in Afghanistan, just as **december** had no idea whether I was indifferent to starvation in Africa. Now why don’t you just pull your foot out of your mouth, pry your head out of your ass, and slink away from this embarrassing excuse for a hijack before you make yourself look any more foolish. **december** doesn’t need any help looking like a partisan troll, and **Izzy** , **Jack** and others are in the midst of a serious discussion. ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/december-blog-spotter-extraordinaire-tireless-informer-on-sins-of-liberals-etc/173899/347 "2003-05-16T09:59:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by minty green \* > As many wild-assed, idiotic threads that WB started, he was not banned for being a wild-ass idiot. He was banned for repeatedly starting political threads in General Questions. I don’t disagree with you, but it is news to me. Is that official or your take ? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by minty green \* > Fact is, you can be as ridiculous as you want in Great Debates, when it come to personal opinions. And while december’s personal opinions are borderline insane \, he does not violate the rules of the forum. Maybe. but I rather thought it was the board-wide jerk rule that most people would invoke to get rid of him, as, btw, I thought was the case with Wildest Bill’s banning until you posted the above explanation. ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/december-blog-spotter-extraordinaire-tireless-informer-on-sins-of-liberals-etc/173899/348 "2003-05-16T10:19:10Z")
I have to say, that shot above is the only one I have of me wearing a UN helmet, but it was taken a long, no, a long, \*long \*time ago …. Also, I’m finding it difficult to keep up with everything that’s coming at me, here. Sorry if I don’t respond to everyone. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mandelstam \* > All I can say is that you won’t find me exonerating anti-semitism: not on these boards, and not in RL. But I also feel that given their history Jews should feel a sense of solidarity with other people who have been or are experiencing oppression. And I believe that the condition of the Palestinian people in Israel is unjust and oppressive; and although there is blame on both sides, I believe that the cycle of violence has been worsened by Sharon’s hardcore policies; and I believe that most Americans, including American Jews, have less knowledge about this situation than they should; and I agree with **L\_C** that in Europe (or at least the parts of Europe that I know) the coverage of the Israel/Palestine conflict is more detailed. I agree with every word of this but I want to emphasis the ‘solidarity with those now being oppressed’ aspect as I also posted about this earlier in this thread to a resounding silence. To paraphrase: How can informed Jewry of any political persuasion support ongoing oppression in the Middle East given the appalling history of the 20th century. I don’t under stand the morality of the position. I don’t even understand - given history 0 how these people expect oppression to pan out for the oppressors. History says it doesn’t bode well. Yet Sharon’s Israel is supported and defended by december, and he, in turn, is supported by Jackmannii and IzzyR. I just don’t get it: Next: As regards the US population having a less informed view on what is done in its name than elsewhere, sure I agree. [It leads to this being possible](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/1525981.stm). Every damn democratic population in the world understands the nature of the oppression the State of Israel is currently inflicting on Palestinians. Yet the US delegation walks out in support of Israel. WTF. "\*South Africa has won approval to remove the controversial draft text on the Middle East which led Israel and the US to walk out of the World Conference against Racism in Durban. \ The draft document stated its “deep concern” at the “increase of racist practices of Zionism and anti-Semitism”. It talked of the emergence of “movements based on racism and discriminatory ideas, in particular the Zionist movement, which is based on racial superiority”.\* In the cold light of day, in the full context of world opinion, the position of the US delegation made no sense , logically, morally and diplomatically; no reason whatsoever for the US to support Sharon in that way. Yet it did. If that happened anywhere else, there’d be a public outcry. Now, IMHO, that kind of thing can only happen when a public in whose name the act is done, is terribly uninformed and/or are subject to serious spinning. So I agree with you on that paragraph, however your final sentence reads: > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mandelstam \* > But as I said above, I do not believe that the reason for that is to do with who owns a particular newspaper. Well, I don’t believe ‘paper ownership is the _sole_ reason but, being pretty cynical, I do think it “has to do with”. As I’ve said; I believe people don’t own ‘papers in order to not exert influence and power. Here’s my reasoning; The US public is, relatively speaking, uninformed, on that we agree. They do not always fully understand what is done in their name. And I have to believe – until otherwise persuaded – that the reason for that is, in large measure, because of the quality of information they receive. In addition, it might be about who gets 32 point headlines and who gets page 5; it could be any number of subtle things but the fact is, US policy is at odds with the rest of the world on Israel to the extent it’s delegation walks out of international conferences when Israel is accused of oppression; and you, I, most of the world understands Israel is oppressing. So, the US public is, we agree, uninformed and US policy makes no sense in a full international context and – we agree – supports Israeli oppression. Now, the US public has a moral conscious that is pricked like any other, how is it possible to be so ‘pro-Sharon’ ( 🙂 ) without media influence on public opinion and presidential foreign policy? ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/december-blog-spotter-extraordinaire-tireless-informer-on-sins-of-liberals-etc/173899/349 "2003-05-16T10:25:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by IzzyR \* > So my position is that it is not anti-semitic or racist to assume that Jewish control of the media would influence media coverage about Israel. My position is that the evidence for Jewish control and for actual influence is so weak that a person who persists in believing it is most likely of the mindset described above. JMHO. YMMV. In the light of my response to \*\*Mandelstam \*\* (just above) could you expand on this, or respond to same, because we’re clearly at odds on influence - as best I know, you just need to look at the consequences (in US policy) to appreciate something’s going on … - To all; probably not going to be around much, if at all, over the weekend. Lets keep the thread as light-hearted and generous of spirit as it’s been thus far …… :eek: And btw, all requests for more photo’s from Gay Gordon of Glasgow, won’t be responded to, thang yew, though, for your interest, and the kilt. ta ta ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/december-blog-spotter-extraordinaire-tireless-informer-on-sins-of-liberals-etc/173899/350 "2003-05-16T10:36:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by London\_Calling \* > \*\*To all; probably not going to be around much, if at all, over the weekend. Lets keep the thread as light-hearted and generous of spirit as it’s been thus far …… :eek: \*\* How convenient. By doing things over the weekend you have clearly displayed that you are a bigot. Refusing to agree with me on this, or asking for a reason, will show that you are dodging the question that I have not asked. I have clear proof of this, in a thread which can’t be found but I remember perfectly. Any criticism or denial of my point here is just further proof of bigotry and anti-semitism, unless you’re jewish in which case you’re an apologist. etc, etc ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/december-blog-spotter-extraordinaire-tireless-informer-on-sins-of-liberals-etc/173899/351 "2003-05-16T10:50:57Z")
**Gary** – If I had the time and could do it credit, I’d come back at you. Very good 😃 ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/december-blog-spotter-extraordinaire-tireless-informer-on-sins-of-liberals-etc/173899/352 "2003-05-16T12:13:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by London\_Calling \* > Is that official or your take ? Here’s [the thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=93849) that finally killed him. Here’s the [ensuing Pit thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=93966). No official pronouncements, but it was pretty well clear at the time. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/december-blog-spotter-extraordinaire-tireless-informer-on-sins-of-liberals-etc/173899/353 "2003-05-16T13:15:53Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by London\_Calling \* > \*\* Yet Sharon’s Israel is supported and defended by december, and he, in turn, is supported by Jackmannii and IzzyR. I just don’t get it._\* I’m afraid it’s a wee bit late to be wrapping yourself in an aura of selfless concerns for the oppressed of the Mideast, as well as blatantly false to be claiming that I am “supporting” **december**. You know full well that I have thoroughly criticized **december** and his tactics here and elsewhere, in addition to finding fault with the current administration in Israel (part of the “reasonableness” you find so appalling). Desperate attempts to link me and **Izzy** with him (I’ll let **Izzy** speak for himself, should he feel the need to defend his integrity from the likes of you) merely highlight your continuing need to lie and obfuscate. The major difference I can see between **London\_Calling** ’s and **december** ’s forays into bigotry are two: a matter of degree ( **LC** ’s offense being more blatant), and acknowledging wrong. When I once taxed **december** for putting up a quote/link that I felt cast Arabs in a bigoted light, he rather sulkily disavowed endorsement of its message. But at least he had the “grace” to back down, something we have not yet seen from **LC**. Oh, **Gary**? Remember a little while ago when you were haughtily demanding proof that **LC’s** pilfered white supremacist data contained errors? Had a chance to check the information that’s been supplied to you, refuting claims of Jewish ownership of the N.Y. Times and Wash. Post? Do **you** have the grace to acknowledge that you were wrong? Or is empty bluster all you have left? ---
**Author:** ![Mandelstam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Mandelstam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mandelstam)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/december-blog-spotter-extraordinaire-tireless-informer-on-sins-of-liberals-etc/173899/354 "2003-05-16T13:27:47Z")
**London** : \*"Well, I don?t believe ?paper ownership is the sole reason but, being pretty cynical, I do think it ?has to do with?. As I?ve said; I believe people don?t own ?papers in order to not exert influence and power. Here?s my reasoning; The US public is, relatively speaking, uninformed, on that we agree. They do not always fully understand what is done in their name. And I have to believe ? until otherwise persuaded ? that the reason for that is, in large measure, because of the quality of information they receive."\* No, people don’t own papers in order to not exert influence and power–but that is a far cry from showing either that 1) Jewish or Jewish-descended people who inherited papers from their families own them in order to flack for the current government of Israel (whomever that country happens to choose to elect) or that 2) newspapers such as the NYT exert sufficient influence over US politics and the US public to effectively control them in any meaningful fashion. As to point 2: if the NYT editorial page had its way, Gore would be president now, Bush would be a multilateralist, the inspectors would probably still be in Iraq looking for WMDs according to a UN compromise of some sort, and the taxcut that the US senate is likely to pass would flop. Not only has none of these things come to pass, but there have many times (esp. the 2000 election) when Times reporting was not at all favorable to achieving the goal of the Times’s own editorial position. There have been many books on the subject of why the US media is the way it is. One of the very best (IMO) and most recent is by Robert McChesney, _Rich Media, Poor Democracy_ (2000). It goes all the way back to a discussion of the 1920s introduction of radio. The New York Times Corp. is among those major conglomerates discussed. As I said earlier, if memory serves, it is now a pubicly traded corporation. What that means among other things is that like many such corporations it is seriously devoted to its own bottom line. On top of which US opinion has, for decades now, and especially since the 1980s, been much more influenced by television journalism than by any print media. I suspect there are books written by reputable scholars about how the US media has specifically treated coverage of Israel though I do not know of one off hand. You might want to take a look though at _Manufacturing Consent_ by Noam Chomsky as this is a classic work in media studies. Since Chomsky is very involved in criticizing US foreign policy from a leftist point of view I’d not be surprised if he’s written something on the subject of Israel specifically. (You might even want to search Znet, which Chomsky is involved in publishing, and see what they’re saying about Israel in the media.) Beyond that I’m not sure but if you’re interested I can ask friends of mine who know much more about this topic than I do. It seems to me that until you read stuff like McChesney and Chomsky–for starters at any rate–that you’d be best just leaving a big question mark over the subject of what precise material conditions makes the US media what it is. _Especially_ if the only immediate alternative is, as it appears, having to google your way into fascist websites geared towards supporting anti-semitic conspiracy theories. If the research done in this thread is at all correct then it looks as though Sulzberger was born half Jewish but considers himself an Anglican, while Graham may be 1/4 Jewish but doesn’t consider herself Jewish at all. One thing I do know though, if the Jewish descent was there, Hitler, were he in power in the US of today, would have killed them both. He would have also killed Rabbi Michael Lerner, the editor of _Tikkun_, along with Jeff Cohen and Chomsky and, on the other side of the political spectrum, Wolfowitz, Podhoretz, and Perle. He made no political distinctions because, as you well know, Jewish racial identity was the sole criterion on which he based his justification for genocide. Among the less illustrious, he’d have gone for Izzy, december, CK Dexter Haven and me. He probably would have spared my British husband but not my son, or the child whose birth I’m expecting in the next few weeks. While Nazi genocide does not give Jews or anyone else moral immunity to ignore other people’s suffering–and while the Palestinian situation is, as both the cited Rabbis in this thread have said, a threat to Judaism itself–it is something that Jews live with and are aware of. I don’t think it’s all that surprising that it makes them edgy when people start to construct flimsy cause-and-effect arguments based on scant information about who owns what. Some will act reflexively, emotionally and assume the worst. While I did not and do not believe, **London** that you are an anti-semite, I do believe that you have got hold of a thesis–that the US position on Israel is either primarily or at least substantively influenced by Jewish-owned/mangaged media–for which you have so far found only superficial evidence, and of a very poor quality. As the same time, 1) there are superior resources out there that you have yet to consult, 2) and people here at the SDMB with varying points of view, both Jewish and non-Jewish, who have tried to persuade you (by means fair and foul) that your hypothetical assumptions are not only intellectually implausible but also, by their very nature, reprehensible in themselves. (The second point is, perhaps, debatable, but the it’s something to take into account as you try to establish a dialogue here.) Since you now know these things, I think it behooves you to reorient your “cynicism”–which is not necessarily a bad thing from a research point of view–and direct it towards the thin foundations of your own assumptions. I say this to you, as I think you must realize, with all my heart: I hope you believe me when I say that I speak mainly as a virtual friend who respects you, and as a historian and professor who knows a bit about research, rather than as a person whom you have offended on religious or ethnic grounds. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/december-blog-spotter-extraordinaire-tireless-informer-on-sins-of-liberals-etc/173899/355 "2003-05-16T13:37:03Z")
excellent assesment, **Mandelstam** ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/december-blog-spotter-extraordinaire-tireless-informer-on-sins-of-liberals-etc/173899/356 "2003-05-16T14:27:21Z")
Hurray, my favourite asshole keeps venting his fumes. You know, for you to accuse anyone else of empty bluster or haughty demands strikes me as akin to the Pop accusing someone else of being a bit catholic. Anyway, on to your latest inanity > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jackmannii \* > \*\*Oh, **Gary**? Remember a little while ago when you were haughtily demanding proof that **LC’s** pilfered white supremacist data contained errors? > Had a chance to check the information that’s been supplied to you, refuting claims of Jewish ownership of the N.Y. Times and Wash. Post? > > Do **you** have the grace to acknowledge that you were wrong? Or is empty bluster all you have left? \*\* Now I’m going to ask a simple question, oh Jack dear chap. Please quote what I said that you think was wrong. You see frankly I’m overcome with dismay that I’ve uttered a falsehood to you, my dear Mannii, so to right this dreadful wrong I need to know the whole extent of my mistake so I can apologize fully for it. Now I know in your usual kind way you’re going to skirt around the issue, reluctant to show me just how terribly I’ve offended, but trust me I can take it. You go quote the passage I need to apologise for - not your interpretation of what I’ve said, not your memory of what was said but cannot be found, just those actual terrible words - and I’ll give it my absolute attention. ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/december-blog-spotter-extraordinaire-tireless-informer-on-sins-of-liberals-etc/173899/357 "2003-05-16T14:46:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mandelstam \* > But **Izzy** , didn’t **L\_C** post a strong proviso just prior to citing these facts? And, if so, in retrospect, can you see that that may have been his way of letting people know that he wasn’t 100% sure that his info was reliable? No. > [@](#): > > 😕 Is there anything that suggests to you that I am _not_ interested in good points? > [@](#): > > I do appreciate your taking the time to explain these things in this debate. But I do wonder why these remarks are, or at least seem to be, addressed to me. What makes you assume, in other words, that you know or care more about anti-semitism than I do? Do you think because I am, perhaps, more secular than you, and because my politics are left of yours that I am more insulated from or innocent of anti-semitism than you? Sorry, they were not addressed to you personally - they were directed to your point (until the final paragraph, that is, when I addressed you by name). I was discussing the general nature of what lies behind these types of accusations. The application to your post was because - in light of this nature - the particular argument that you raised does not settle the issue for those who buy into the “Jewish control” theory. I have no idea what you know or don’t know about anti-semitism or anything else, and have no theories about the relative knowledge of secular leftists regarding this issue. However, in this particular debate you had not clarified these issues (nor had anyone else), so I thought I would. So you can tone down the righteous indignation, and I, in turn, will refrain from carrying on should you explain anything that I already know. > [@](#): > > Actually, you must have missed or skimmed one of my earlier posts. I specifically said that most American Jews don’t connect war in Iraq with Israel in a strong way; and that in the Times’s editorials on the subject, Israel had hardly come up. OTOH some Jewish neocons do make the connection and since Bush consorts with neocons, both Jewish and non-Jewish, that’s what brought the subject of Iraq into this debate in this way. Then why bring up the war in Iraq at all? I understood you to be saying that it _was_ a Jewish issue, and the fact that many Jews did not support it based on Israel was proof of your point that there exists a wide diversity of opinion among the Jewish population about “Jewish” issues. Which in turn was in support of your position that even if we accept for the sake of this argument that most of the mass media is controlled by people who are Jewish, there would still be no reason to assume that it would influence coverage of Israel. And to that I respond that since Iraq was not in fact widely perceived as an Israeli issue, the diversity of opinion on this matter does NOT support an assumption of similar diversity on matters that ARE Israeli issues. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by London\_Calling \* > Yet Sharon’s Israel is supported and defended by december, and he, in turn, is supported by Jackmannii and IzzyR. I just don’t get it Actually you can skip the middle step - I myself support “Sharon’s Israel” (though I can’t guarantee that I support every single action they’ve done). I’ve discussed this elsewhere, e.g. [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=129239). But that’s not what we are discussing here. > [@](#): > > In the light of my response to \*\*Mandelstam \*\* (just above) could you expand on this, or respond to same, because we’re clearly at odds on influence - as best I know, you just need to look at the consequences (in US policy) to appreciate something’s going on … Your response to Mandelstam above essentially boils down to: “the Israelis are just so terrible that it’s impossible that the decent Gentiles in the US could possibly support them unless they were being manipulated by the Jews.” Suffice it to say that I disagree with this assessment. > [@](#): > > To all; probably not going to be around much, if at all, over the weekend. Lets keep the thread as light-hearted and generous of spirit as it’s been thus far …… :eek: I myself will also be gone for the weekend, as previous. (Gary Kumquat can make of this what he will). From my end, I think I’ve pretty much said my say, though I shall respond to any new points should anyone make any. My initial intention was not to have a drawn out battle over bigotry - I was explaining a point to sailor about whether and why Dalyell’s remarks should be construed as anti-semitism, and I noted that the same rationale would be applied to similar allegations about media ownership. I would not have brought you in had you not been a participant in this thread, but as you were already here, going after december and Dex in the most “light-hearted and generous of spirit” manner for being too pro-Israel for your taste, I figured I’d throw in a jab and see if you could play a little defense for a change. At this point I am not specifically looking to drag this out, though I will continue to defend my position, if challenged. (BTW, a nitpick for **Mandelstam** : it appears that Katherine Graham herself was _half_-Jewish. She _didn’t_ consider herself Jewish - at this point she is no longer alive. Your comments would be correct about her son who currently runs the paper. Also, I don’t know why it makes a difference if Hitler would or would not have killed a given person - not sure what your point was there.) ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/december-blog-spotter-extraordinaire-tireless-informer-on-sins-of-liberals-etc/173899/358 "2003-05-16T15:06:40Z")
Four quickies, then I’m jolly well orf: One: \*\* Mandelstam\*\*, I shall take my leave and look elsewhere for answers. I can’t thank you enough for the time, effort and enlightenment you’ve put into this thread. Two: Ftr, I feel a little disappointed that there is little nourishing to be found in this thread, a few glimpses of better perspectives but nothing that represents a new edifice; Just a few signposts (towards Chomsky, et al) and for which I thank Mandelstam. So I’m left with my great problem; I have no alternative explanation for (in a political and moral sense) the seemingly unconventional \> irrational (YMMV) thrust of US policy in relation to Sharon’s Israel (up to this ‘Road Map’, at least). Much of the rest of the world makes sense: The undercurrents in international diplomacy, policies, relationships, motivations, agendas …. But the US \> Israel relationship does not. It’s something apart, distinct and, as demonstrated, the Chief Rabbi has moral issues with it (see earlier, this thread), the world has issues with the US policy (my last post), fellow Israeli’s have problems with Israeli policy (see earlier, this thread). Yet it exists, it prevails and, now I’m encouraged to abandon the only (partial) explanation I have for this strange relationship, for fear of offending further and to, instead, look somewhere else. If anyone on this board catches glimpse of this most elusive of political Holy Grails, please let me know. Three: > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by IzzyR \* > I would not have brought you in had you not been a participant in this thread, but as you were already here, going after december and Dex in the most “light-hearted and generous of spirit” manner for being too pro-Israel for your taste, I figured I’d throw in a jab and see if you could play a little defense for a change. See, that’s why I’ve got time for you. Not too shabby, I thought …… Fourth: I did belatedly come to understand (in this thread) that some would reflexively react to suggestions of Jewish control. No question, I can concentrate on, and become preoccupied by, getting to the core of an issue to the detriment of others’ sensibilities and so, sometimes, I’m bemused by all the disquiet \> shouting. Yep, sure, there is a wider concern (racism, etc.) that I could have acknowledged and done more to dispel earlier than this. That aside, I still suspect that the loony fringe seek only to distract and smear but it’s the fringe only (and all fringes are like that); the overwhelming majority have genuine concerns and emotional investments I should have take into account (including, maybe, Mandelstam’s for the NYT 😉 ) – I wish you the very, very best over the next few weeks, btw. I also think (and hope) this thread is done, so unless anything comes up … again, my thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/december-blog-spotter-extraordinaire-tireless-informer-on-sins-of-liberals-etc/173899/359 "2003-05-16T15:12:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by IzzyR \* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Mandelstam \*But Izzy, didn’t L\_C post a strong proviso just prior to citing these facts? And, if so, in retrospect, can you see that that may have been his way of letting people know that he wasn’t 100% sure that his info was reliable? > > No. Erm, is that no he didn’t post such a proviso, as he did say "Okay, firstly an advisory notice: I’m only interested in facts. If anything that follows is inaccurate, please post accordingly. It is, to the best of my knowledge (there is simply too much info for me to check it all), current and accurate " Or is it no you don’t think that was a clear enough sign that he wasn’t sure of it’s accuracy? > [@](#): > > I myself will also be gone for the weekend, as previous. (Gary Kumquat can make of this what he will). Well once I’d have thought that you’re going off for the weekend - possibly to visit friends or family, perhaps to engage in sports or socialising…why the list is almost endless for what I might have guessed someone was doing at the weekend. However, since this thread I have now learned that anyone who goes off for the weekend is actually trying to dodge questions, regardless of whether they’ve already been answered. Live and learn, eh. ---
**Author:** ![Mojo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Mojo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mojo)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/december-blog-spotter-extraordinaire-tireless-informer-on-sins-of-liberals-etc/173899/360 "2003-05-16T15:41:42Z")
L\_C, Have you considered the possibility that every time there’s a terrorist attack on either the US or Israel there’s usually a big party in the West Bank with Palestinians burning American flags, holding aloft pictures of Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein, and dressing up their kids in suicide bomber gear while screaming “death to the Jews” and that this may be responsible for the general trend of American sympathy to Israel? Most of the Americans that I’ve spoken with don’t have a “I support Israel no matter what” mindset, but more of a “I don’t support Israel’s actions in a lot of cases, but I like the Intifada and suicide bombers targeting civilians even less” attitude. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/december-blog-spotter-extraordinaire-tireless-informer-on-sins-of-liberals-etc/173899.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/december-blog-spotter-extraordinaire-tireless-informer-on-sins-of-liberals-etc/173899.md?page=19)