# decentralize government and conservative anarchist or libertarian **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 3, 2013, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decentralize-government-and-conservative-anarchist-or-libertarian/654712 "2013-04-03T08:02:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2013, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decentralize-government-and-conservative-anarchist-or-libertarian/654712/41 "2013-04-06T20:16:20Z")
> [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](#): > > God, I hate spring break. Seriously, don’t kids go to South Padre or Panama City Beach or wherever and just get drunk and laid all week anymore? ---
**Author:** ![sweat209](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc348/32.png) [@sweat209](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sweat209)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2013, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decentralize-government-and-conservative-anarchist-or-libertarian/654712/42 "2013-04-06T20:26:43Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Rand Paul admits he puts the rights of open-to-the-public white businesses owners over the rights of non-whites to have freedom of choice to conduct business there and he is defined as a fair minded for protecting the freedom of racists to be racist. > > That freedom is automatically protected unless a crime is committed. > > It had nothing to do with there being a need to protecting the racists right to engage in public enterprises as an outlet for his/her hatreds. > > What racists do on their private un-public property is not what Title II is dealing with. > > So do you agree with Rand Paul on his displeasure with Title II? Rand Paul is not true libertarian. > **[Libertarianism](https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism)** > > Libertarianism is a political stance generally known as about the idea of individual liberties, responsibility/self-ownership, and free choice. It says the government should have less control over the lives of its citizens and should let them be responsible for themselves without the involvement of the government. It is based on the idea of maximum liberty. They also believe not everything has to have the government involved. They believe people should be free to do as they please unless it harms... > [@](#): > > Libertarians are opposed to states (or governments) creating any “laws” that tell people what they can and cannot do with their own bodies. The only legitimate laws are laws that say a person may not start violence against other people or their legitimate property. All “laws” stopping people from doing nonviolent things should be repealed, according to libertarians. (These “laws” are usually called “victimless crimes” because there is no victim if there is no theft.) > > In most countries, the state (or government) takes tax money from the people. All libertarians support cutting taxes back, and some libertarians believe the state should not take tax money at all. Libertarians think people can take care of the poor without the government. They believe that people should pay for the things that they want to use, but not have to pay for other things that they do not want. Tax evasion (refusal to pay taxes to the state) is a victimless crime. Libertarians would prefer to see taxation replaced with lotteries, user fees, and endowments. > > Libertarians think everyone should be allowed to decide what is good or bad for her/his own body. Libertarians think if people want to drive cars without wearing seat belts, it is their own choice. They should not be forcibly stopped from doing that, not even by the state. If a person wants to donate all of her/his money to a charity, or waste it all gambling, that is also something she/he should decide for herself/himself. No one should be forcibly stopped from doing that, not even by the state. Libertarians even say that if adults want to use harmful drugs, they should be allowed to do that, even if it spoils their lives. It is the drug user’s own choice because it is the drug user’s own body. As long as the drug user does not start using violence against other people or their legitimate property, no one should use violence against the drug user or the drug user’s legitimate property, not even the government. > > Many libertarians also believe that families and friends should look after people so that they will not use drugs, drive without seat belts, or do other things that are dangerous for them. But no one can force others to do things that they do not want to do, or to stop them from doing nonviolent things that they want to do. > [@](#): > > Ownership is the right to control something. Property is the thing that you control. > > Libertarians believe that property rights come from self-ownership. This means that because you have a right to control your own body, you also have a right to control what you make with it. > > The English philosopher John Locke said that a person comes to own something by using it. So, if you turn an area that no-one else owns into a farm and use it, that area becomes your property. This is called the “homestead principle.” > > Libertarians also say that you can become a legitimate owner by receiving something as a gift or by trading it with someone for something they own. You do not become a legitimate owner by stealing. You also do not become a legitimate owner by simply saying you own something. If you have not “homesteaded” the thing or received it through trade or gift, you do not own it. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2013, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decentralize-government-and-conservative-anarchist-or-libertarian/654712/43 "2013-04-06T22:02:49Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > President Obama supports the rights of racists, like the Neo Nazis, to march in Jewish neighborhoods over the rights of Jewish citizens not to be threatened by such actions. So, he is fair minded in protecting the freedom of the racists to be racists. Are the neo-nazis setting up Christian Only businesses in Jewish neighborhoods somewhere. If so, where? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2013, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decentralize-government-and-conservative-anarchist-or-libertarian/654712/44 "2013-04-06T22:12:37Z")
> [@sweat209](#): > > Rand Paul is not true libertarian. I didn’t say he was a 'true libertarian. He is too much libertarian with his favoriing business owner’s rights to discriminate against members of a racial minority in America. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2013, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decentralize-government-and-conservative-anarchist-or-libertarian/654712/45 "2013-04-06T22:15:38Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Are the neo-nazis setting up Christian Only businesses in Jewish neighborhoods somewhere. If so, where? Are the racist shop owners marching with racists signs through black neighborhoods? If so, where? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2013, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decentralize-government-and-conservative-anarchist-or-libertarian/654712/46 "2013-04-06T22:27:46Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Are the racist shop owners marching with racists signs through black neighborhoods? If so, where? I didn’t say they were. Rand Paul supports racist shop owners rights over the minority population that they discriminate against. That is what Title II in the 1964 Civil Rights act criminalized. Marching Nazis have always had the right to march wherever in public they choose to march if they do not violate any laws. It has nothing to do with Obama and it has nothing to do with the 1964 Civil Rights Act Title II that Rand Paul opposses. Rand Paul’s racist business owners can march with racist signs in black neigborhoods too if the commit no crimes. Perhaps some of them are neo-nazis anyway. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2013, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decentralize-government-and-conservative-anarchist-or-libertarian/654712/47 "2013-04-06T22:32:58Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > I didn’t say they were. Rand Paul supports racist shop owners rights over the minority population that they discriminate against. That is what Title II in the 1964 Civil Rights act criminalized. > > Marching Nazis have always had the right to march wherever in public they choose to march if they do not violate any laws. It has nothing to do with Obama and it has nothing to do with the 1964 Civil Rights Act Title II that Rand Paul opposses. > > Rand Paul’s racist business owners can march with racist signs in black neigborhoods too if the commit no crimes. Perhaps some of them are neo-nazis anyway. Let me spell it out for you. We all agree to “protect the right of racists to be racists”; we just disagree on where to draw the line. There is no objectively determinable way to draw such a line. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2013, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decentralize-government-and-conservative-anarchist-or-libertarian/654712/48 "2013-04-07T00:59:04Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Let me spell it out for you. We all agree to “protect the right of racists to be racists”; we just disagree on where to draw the line. There is no objectively determinable way to draw such a line. No. The question here rather is, do you agree or disagree that it was proper in 1964 for the Federal Government to make it a crime for owners of a private business that is open for public business to discriminate against any potential customers because of their race. So what is your position? Senator Rand Paul disagrees and Human Action wrote about Rand Paul siding with racist business owners having the right to discriminate, **“Sounds fine to me”** ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2013, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decentralize-government-and-conservative-anarchist-or-libertarian/654712/49 "2013-04-07T22:02:00Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Rand Paul admits he puts the rights of open-to-the-public white businesses owners over the rights of non-whites to have freedom of choice to conduct business there and he is defined as a fair minded for protecting the freedom of racists to be racist. First, Rand Paul doesn’t seem to care all that much about the Civil Rights Act: > [@](#): > > “I believe we should work to end all racism in American society and staunchly defend the inherent rights of every person. I have clearly stated in prior interviews that I abhor racial discrimination and would have worked to end segregation.\*\* Even though this matter was settled when I was 2, and no serious people are seeking to revisit it except to score cheap political points, I unequivocally state that I will not support any efforts to repeal the Civil Rights Act of 1964.” \*\* Bolding mine. A far more accurate summary would be, “When pressed on a law from 1964, Rand Paul stated that the law shouldn’t blur the line between public and private property.” > [@](#): > > Maddow:… How about desegregating lunch counters? > Paul: Well what it gets into then is if you decide that restaurants are publicly owned and not privately owned, then do you say that you should have the right to bring your gun into a restaurant even though the owner of the restaurant says ‘well no, we don’t want to have guns in here’ the bar says ‘we don’t want to have guns in here because people might drink and start fighting and shoot each-other.’ Does the owner of the restaurant own his restaurant? Or does the government own his restaurant? These are important philosophical debates but not a very practical discussion… > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > That freedom is automatically protected unless a crime is committed. And Title II of the Civil Rights Act criminalized the practice of racial discrimination in certain businesses, such as hotels, movie theaters, and restaurants. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > What racists do on their private un-public property is not what Title II is dealing with. Yes, it deals with public private property, a distinction with dangerous implications. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > So do you agree with Rand Paul on his displeasure with Title II? I don’t think private property should be treated as quasi-public, no. Discrimination on private property is not a matter for the legislature to intervene in. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2013, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decentralize-government-and-conservative-anarchist-or-libertarian/654712/50 "2013-04-07T22:08:06Z")
> [@sweat209](#): > > That contradictory when right-wing go on and on about big government they normal hate welfare state:o:o:o:o but big police force , large prison population ,large army and voice police no problem So you can see why libertarians are not interchangeable with conservatives. > [@sweat209](#): > > Both are very unhappy with welfare state and FDR of today. > > There are libertarians movement in US but I think some people who call them self libertarians are not true libertarians.They don’t like high debt , welfare state today ,FDR and feds on abortion , LGBT rights and way feds are today.Small government and lack of decentralized government > > There where many Americans got really bad doing civil rights movement saying how dare the feds tell us what we can or cannot do in are state .Today it less about civil rights and blacks but abortion , LGBT rights and feds overstepping boundaries of state. > > The true libertarians are very much about liberty and believe there should be no law or government on issues of one own body on abortion , LGBT , sex ,smoking ,drugs ,common law living ,same sex marriage ,porn , seat belt laws and other laws . This is largely correct. Different political affiliations have different beliefs. > [@sweat209](#): > > On proper free market the views would be we need no laws the free market would take care self.Likes of oh man so what stopping you from starting a business and getting girls or blacks to work their if other work places will not take you. Ok, but that does _not_ mean being anti-Civil Rights movement or anti-race equality. Jim Crow wasn’t a voluntary decision by business owners and government workers, it was the law. The free market will not take care of itself when desegregation is illegal! ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2013, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decentralize-government-and-conservative-anarchist-or-libertarian/654712/51 "2013-04-07T22:40:23Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > I don’t think private property should be treated as quasi-public, no. Discrimination on private property is not a matter for the legislature to intervene in. I agree. ---
**Author:** ![sweat209](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc348/32.png) [@sweat209](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sweat209)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decentralize-government-and-conservative-anarchist-or-libertarian/654712/52 "2013-04-08T00:24:02Z")
> [@](#): > > That contradictory when right-wing go on and on about big government they normal hate welfare state but big police force , large prison population ,large army and voice police no problem > [@](#): > > So you can see why libertarians are not interchangeable with conservatives To academic scholar yes but try explaining that to hard core conservative and some not so true liberties or tea party movement that can’t even pass second grade school work. Most liberals laugh in there face. > [@](#): > > Ok, but that does not mean being anti-Civil Rights movement or anti-race equality. Jim Crow wasn’t a voluntary decision by business owners and government workers, it was the law. The free market will not take care of itself when desegregation is illegal! I think you mean segregation laws for blacks that would be contradictory to libertarians belief. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decentralize-government-and-conservative-anarchist-or-libertarian/654712/53 "2013-04-08T01:32:31Z")
> [@sweat209](#): > > To academic scholar yes but try explaining that to hard core conservative and some not so true liberties or tea party movement that can’t even pass second grade school work. > > Most liberals laugh in there face. I think the large majority of people are able to identify what ideology they follow. You won’t find right-wing conservatives of the Rush Limbaugh or Pat Buchanan schools calling themselves libertarians. The Tea Party is a special case, in that it’s a broad, informal coalition of multiple viewpoints. > [@sweat209](#): > > I think you mean segregation laws for blacks that would be contradictory to libertarians belief. Depends on which laws you mean. Laws mandating segregation? Libertarians would oppose them. Laws prohibiting discrimination by a private business? Libertarians would oppose those too. So, saying that libertarians are anti-Civil Rights movement only makes sense if you’re referring to that second type of law. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decentralize-government-and-conservative-anarchist-or-libertarian/654712/54 "2013-04-08T02:59:31Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > I don’t think private property should be treated as quasi-public, no. Discrimination on private property is not a matter for the legislature to intervene in. IF private property is used for Commerce that is regulated by many legislatures and government agencies, such as ‘health departments’ do you agree with Rand Paul that the owners of those businesses have a right to both conduct commerce with the public and discriminate against potential customers because of their race? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decentralize-government-and-conservative-anarchist-or-libertarian/654712/55 "2013-04-08T11:54:26Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > But also a much **stronger** one than the U.S. had under the Articles of Confederation. **WillFarnaby** already ran away from a lot of these kinds of arguments in the [If the Founding Fathers could see us now](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=676197) thread. As for this particular thread, [Bill Maher said some pretty spot on things about Libertarianism](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/06/bill-maher-libertarianism-paul-ryan-rand-paul-video_n_3028244.html) to close this week’s _Real Time_: > [@](#): > > Once a supporter of Libertarianism and its views on government intervention, Maher explained why he thinks politicians such as Paul Ryan and Rand Paul are “intellectually stuck in their teen years” and have turned a once promising movement into a free market-obsessed, “nanny state”-fearing delusion. > > Maher went on to defend his new views on Libertarianism by mocking the party’s tendency to reject government services even when they are arguably very useful: > > > [@](#): > > > > “To everyone who keeps trying to shame me about abandoning my Libertarian moorings, my message is this: I didn’t go nuts, this movement did. Like when you see a stop light, your reaction should be ‘Great, an easy way to ensure we don’t all crash into each other,’ not, 'How dare the government tell me when I can and cannot go!” The video there is pretty amusing and also pretty damn accurate. I was also a registered Libertarian. But then I grew up. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decentralize-government-and-conservative-anarchist-or-libertarian/654712/56 "2013-04-08T12:19:48Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > IF private property is used for Commerce that is regulated by many legislatures and government agencies, such as ‘health departments’… Congress is only empowered to regulate interstate commerce. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > …do you agree with Rand Paul that the owners of those businesses have a right to both conduct commerce with the public and discriminate against potential customers because of their race? Yes. It’s their property, they can serve whomever they would like to. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decentralize-government-and-conservative-anarchist-or-libertarian/654712/57 "2013-04-08T13:13:56Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Congress is only empowered to regulate interstate commerce. Yes. It’s their property, they can serve whomever they would like to. So, on a fine April morning a group of black families go to Church in Leesburg Virginia and plan an outing dressed in their Sunday best to go to the Buck Country Buffet over in Frederiksburg Maryland to meet some friends nearby and they are told that in Maryland business owners have the right serve whomever they wish and Buck County Buffet does not serve colored people. The Feds do not have the authority to intervene says you. Is that correct? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decentralize-government-and-conservative-anarchist-or-libertarian/654712/58 "2013-04-08T13:44:27Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > So, on a fine April morning a group of black families go to Church in Leesburg Virginia and plan an outing dressed in their Sunday best to go to the Buck Country Buffet over in Frederiksburg Maryland to meet some friends nearby and they are told that in Maryland business owners have the right serve whomever they wish and Buck County Buffet does not serve colored people. > > The Feds do not have the authority to intervene says you. > > Is that correct? Correct. I sharply disagree with the ultra-broad reading of the Commerce Clause, and the simultaneous weakening of the 10th Amendment, that occured for about 60 years in the U.S., and which included [Heart of Atlanta Motel v. United States](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heart_of_Atlanta_Motel_v._United_States). More to the point, and setting aside questions of plenary power and such, it’s morally wrong to infringe on property rights in the way Title II does. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decentralize-government-and-conservative-anarchist-or-libertarian/654712/59 "2013-04-08T14:12:59Z")
Libertarians LOVE those property rights. Individual rights and civil rights? Not so much. Talk about a serious lack of priorities! If my house is on fire, I will attempt to save my wife before any of my property. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decentralize-government-and-conservative-anarchist-or-libertarian/654712/60 "2013-04-08T14:16:36Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > Libertarians LOVE those property rights. > > Individual rights and civil rights? Not so much. > > Talk about a serious lack of priorities! > > If my house is on fire, I will attempt to save my wife before any of my property. You have no civil right to eat at one particular restaurant or stay at one particular hotel. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decentralize-government-and-conservative-anarchist-or-libertarian/654712.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decentralize-government-and-conservative-anarchist-or-libertarian/654712.md?page=4)