# Decided:Smokers are not people **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 7, 2010, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decided-smokers-are-not-people/531612 "2010-03-07T11:49:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2010, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decided-smokers-are-not-people/531612/101 "2010-03-09T19:24:32Z")
_lights up_ > [@Alice\_The\_Goon](#): > > You know who else didn’t want people to have the freedom to smoke on their own front porch? Mister Rodgers. Fucked up that opening montage something good if there were a buncha dirty smokers sitting about in the neighborhood. ETA: 1. He’s the head of science for _British American Tobacco_. Hardly an impartial observer. 2. Passive smoking is nowhere near the health risk people make it to be. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2010, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decided-smokers-are-not-people/531612/102 "2010-03-09T19:26:09Z")
> [@](#): > > then people who don’t like it are naturally going to respond by supporting more and more legal restrictions on where it’s allowable to smoke I don’t believe you’ll see any further advancement on that front. Because if they move the line again the courts will be swamped with complaints of smelly fish, incense, bbq pork. They aren’t going to go there, your delusions notwithstanding. Until there is an outright ban on tobacco, there is always going to be someplace that smokers are allowed to smoke. But you go ahead and form your committees and have your marches and protests, if it makes you feel better. Better keep them indoors though, otherwise smokers are likely to stand across the street and partake while watching all the deluded delicate flowers dance. _Shiver._ ---
**Author:** ![Wile\_E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c37758/32.png) [@Wile\_E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wile_E)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2010, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decided-smokers-are-not-people/531612/103 "2010-03-09T19:46:56Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > I don’t get offended, I just think you’re full of shit. Okay then, the feeling is mutual. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2010, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decided-smokers-are-not-people/531612/104 "2010-03-09T19:53:55Z")
> [@Wile\_E](#): > > I’ve never been to Boston. But let me explain asthma triggers, they can vary from one asthmatic to another. Many are set off by cigarette smoke, some aren’t - those ones may even smoke themselves, but as a general rule smoke is a common trigger. Some may have only one trigger, some could have several, people bothered by diesel fumes probably avoid metropolitan areas. So just because someone wasn’t coughing before you blew smoke in their face doesn’t mean they’re full of shit because they started coughing when they were within your eyesight, you can usually smell cigarette smoke before you see it. > > I don’t understand why smokers get so offended by people coughing around them. If someone farted around you, you’d probably react and wrinkle your nose in disgust and maybe even cover your face and run out of the room. Coughing or covering your mouth and nose is a common reaction to a noxious smell. You may like the smell of your own cigarettes and farts but that doesn’t mean everyone else does so don’t be so shocked or offended when they react. I used to have a lot of sympathy for this situation, but that has disappeared now, pretty much with the smoking bans in bars. The anti-smoking campaigners drove people out of bars, places where there is no need or compulsion to go, and rejected all compromises suggested like allowing limited numbers of bars to stay smoking. Now, in DC at least, the next push is to ban people smoking on the sidewalk outside the bar. Had you not banned smoking in the bar, I’d have been fine with a ban on smoking on public sidewalks (maybe with certain areas set up that allowed smoking). It sucks for a person who hates cigarette smoke to have to walk past a big group of smokers to get from one end of the block to the other. But if you allowed the smokers to smoke in a private bar, with an owner who wants to allow smoking, and bar staff who want to work in a smoking environment, then this problem would be significantly less. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2010, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decided-smokers-are-not-people/531612/105 "2010-03-09T20:34:19Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > I don’t believe you’ll see any further advancement on that front. Because if they move the line again the courts will be swamped with complaints of smelly fish, incense, bbq pork. They aren’t going to go there, your delusions notwithstanding. Well, I think you might be taking a slightly rosy view of the prospects in that regard. As [this _Time_ science blog noted last November](http://wellness.blogs.time.com/2009/11/19/the-science-behind-moving-smoking-bans-outside/), more places are starting to take outdoor smoking bans more seriously: > [@](#): > > **The science behind moving smoking bans outside** > > The U.S. surgeon general’s office issued a report in 2006 emphatically declaring that: “there is no risk-free level of exposure to secondhand smoke,” and evidence confirming these findings continues to emerge almost weekly. And now, as indoor smoking bans gain traction worldwide and efforts to spread the bans to more U.S. states continue, researchers and public health officials are increasingly setting their sights on the next frontier in the battle against second hand smoke: the outdoors. > > Many smokers already feel that their liberty to light up is being trimmed back—with bans moving beyond public buildings and offices to private apartments and public housing in some cities. […] > > A new study published in the November issue of the Journal of Occupational and Environmental Hygiene may contribute to the debate. Researchers from the University of Georgia measured second hand smoke exposure among people sitting in the outdoor areas of bars and restaurants where indoor smoking was banned in the city of Athens, Georgia. […] > > > [@](#): > > > > Although the increment in cotinine concentrations and, thus, the [second hand smoke] exposure levels were relatively low at the sites of interest, the current view is that there is no level of personal exposure to [second hand smoke] that can be regarded as safe. This study demonstrates the ongoing exposure of nonsmokers to [second hand smoke] outside restaurants and bars, and the limitations of indoor smoking bans alone in protecting the public from exposure to [second hand smoke] outside these establishments. > > In other words, the movement to ban smoking in outdoor spaces is here to stay. > [@elbows](#): > > Until there is an outright ban on tobacco, there is always going to be someplace that smokers are allowed to smoke. Like I said, I’d be happy for them to smoke **anyplace** if they kept their smoke to themselves. But if they can’t, and if their smoke is constantly bothering non-smokers, I’m not going to be surprised if the more militant non-smokers continue to push through additional legal restrictions on their smoking. And if the smokers’ default response to people who are constantly bothered by their smoke is just to jeer at them and tell them “suck it up, delicate flower, 'cuz it’s legal for me to smoke here and there ain’t a thing you can do about it”, then the smokers shouldn’t be surprised if they don’t get much sympathy when the legality goes away. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2010, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decided-smokers-are-not-people/531612/106 "2010-03-09T20:42:12Z")
I love that your cite basically said researchers found no additional exposure to nicotine in people subjected to outdoor secondhand smoke but that cities would try banning it anyway. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2010, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decided-smokers-are-not-people/531612/107 "2010-03-09T20:42:33Z")
Kimstu, if you’re going to keep pulling out the “hostility begets hostility” thing, it might be worth noting that **we didn’t start it**. Yeah, twenty years later, herded into pens 50 feet away from the building, we get a little pissy when you complain about our smoke. You see, \*\*we \*\*are smoking in the only place we’re allowed to smoke. \*\*You \*\*can go anywhere you like. So yeah, bite me. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2010, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decided-smokers-are-not-people/531612/108 "2010-03-09T20:43:02Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Like I said, I’d be happy for them to smoke **anyplace** if they kept their smoke to themselves. But if they can’t, and if their smoke is constantly bothering non-smokers, I’m not going to be surprised if the more militant non-smokers continue to push through additional legal restrictions on their smoking. But it is the actions of the non-smokers pushing for compulsory smoke free bars that has made the problem significantly worse. As well as adding to noise pollution, if you happen to live near a bar. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2010, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decided-smokers-are-not-people/531612/109 "2010-03-09T20:54:15Z")
Yep, non smokers were the ones who insisted on NO smoking in bars, no matter what. Even though bar owners were willing to set up a separate room, with a giant ventilation system to vent it out the top of the building. Not good enough, insisted the non smokers. So yeah, people now smoke on streets instead. Guess you should have been more reasonable when you had the chance. Suck it up is right. As soon as it’s illegal I’ll be right there with you, until them, tough darts. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2010, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decided-smokers-are-not-people/531612/110 "2010-03-09T20:58:02Z")
> [@RNATB](#): > > I love that your cite basically said researchers found no additional exposure to nicotine in people subjected to outdoor secondhand smoke but that cities would try banning it anyway. Actually, the article discussed in the link said that outdoor secondhand smoke **did** increase nicotine exposure levels significantly; it just didn’t increase nicotine exposure beyond threshold levels currently classified as dangerous. Whether or not you view that as a potential public health hazard depends on what you think of the statement that “there is no level of personal exposure to [second hand smoke] that can be regarded as safe.” > [@DianaG](#): > > Kimstu, if you’re going to keep pulling out the “hostility begets hostility” thing, it might be worth noting that we didn’t start it. Except that to a non-smoker bothered by smoke, breathing smoke into their airspace **is** a form of “starting it”. Putting smoke into other people’s breathing room seems to the nonsmoker like a rude intrusion, just as it seems like a rude intrusion when people are yelling or playing loud music. The intruder may not mean to be disturbing other people, but that isn’t apparent to those on the receiving end. > [@DianaG](#): > > Yeah, twenty years later, herded into pens 50 feet away from the building, we get a little pissy when you complain about our smoke. You see, we are smoking in the only place we’re allowed to smoke. You can go anywhere you like. But this doesn’t apply when nonsmokers are being constantly bothered by smoke _while in their own homes_. People want to live normal lives in their homes without being constantly annoyed by pervasive noxious emanations from the neighbors, whether they’re noise or smoke or smells or whatever. I understand that smokers feel like they’ve had to sacrifice a lot of freedom and comfort for the convenience of nonsmokers, and they naturally resent it. But the fundamental root of the problem here is that smokers apparently\* can’t keep their smoke to themselves, and a lot of other people don’t like breathing their smoke. - I have never been able to figure out why there isn’t more effort put into researching technologies that **would** let smokers keep their smoke to themselves. If we can put a man on the moon, can we really not solve this simple little issue of localized particulate air pollution? ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2010, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decided-smokers-are-not-people/531612/111 "2010-03-09T21:02:45Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Whether or not you view that as a potential public health hazard depends on what you think of the statement that “there is no level of personal exposure to [second hand smoke] that can be regarded as safe.” Personally, I think it’s a bit on the hyperbolic side. None? Really? I can’t help but wonder why we’re not all dead, then. > [@Kimstu](#): > > Except that to a non-smoker bothered by smoke, breathing smoke into their airspace **is** a form of “starting it”. Putting smoke into other people’s breathing room seems to the nonsmoker like a rude intrusion, just as it seems like a rude intrusion when people are yelling or playing loud music. The intruder may not mean to be disturbing other people, but that isn’t apparent to those on the receiving end. And you know, I could maybe see that, when we were all sharing indoor space. But if the whole great outdoors isn’t sufficient to diffuse a bit of cigarette smoke to your satisfaction, maybe YOU\* are the one who needs a bubble. \*Not, ya know, _you_. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Falling\_Reverend](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/aca169/32.png) [@The\_Falling\_Reverend](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Falling_Reverend)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2010, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decided-smokers-are-not-people/531612/112 "2010-03-09T21:07:24Z")
I for one, am in favor of banning smoking outdoors. While all those pesky non-smokers are out enjoying their fresh air again, we can sneak back into the bar and have a few cigs with our beers. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2010, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decided-smokers-are-not-people/531612/113 "2010-03-09T21:29:31Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Whether or not you view that as a potential public health hazard depends on what you think of the statement that “there is no level of personal exposure to [second hand smoke] that can be regarded as safe.” I think it’s ludicrous, as anyone who thinks it through is bound to. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2010, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decided-smokers-are-not-people/531612/114 "2010-03-09T21:46:28Z")
> [@villa](#): > > I used to have a lot of sympathy for this situation, but that has disappeared now, pretty much with the smoking bans in bars. The anti-smoking campaigners drove people out of bars, places where there is no need or compulsion to go, and rejected all compromises suggested like allowing limited numbers of bars to stay smoking. > > Now, in DC at least, the next push is to ban people smoking on the sidewalk outside the bar. Had you not banned smoking in the bar, I’d have been fine with a ban on smoking on public sidewalks (maybe with certain areas set up that allowed smoking). It sucks for a person who hates cigarette smoke to have to walk past a big group of smokers to get from one end of the block to the other. But if you allowed the smokers to smoke in a private bar, with an owner who wants to allow smoking, and bar staff who want to work in a smoking environment, then this problem would be significantly less. In some places, I think this sidewalk ban has already been enacted (?), New York maybe? I believe there have also been efforts to “outlaw” smoking from entire towns. As to the “smoking bar”, I think I can predict what will happen - someone will file a lawsuite because they want to go there but it’s full of smokers, or some attorny will file a class action “for” the workers there and get rich off it. I want to get something clear, OP. Is this smoking guy next door to you or across the street from you? Is there ever a moment when the breeze or wind is NOT blowing ALL that smoke directly at you? Do you really have choking fits from all this undiluted and undissipated smoke that is constantly being blown directly and at full strength into your house? ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2010, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decided-smokers-are-not-people/531612/115 "2010-03-09T21:55:59Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > Yep, non smokers were the ones who insisted on NO smoking in bars, no matter what. Even though bar owners were willing to set up a separate room, with a giant ventilation system to vent it out the top of the building. Not good enough, insisted the non smokers. So yeah, people now smoke on streets instead. > > Guess you should have been more reasonable when you had the chance. Suck it up is right. > > As soon as it’s illegal I’ll be right there with you, until them, tough darts. And now they don’t want it on the street either. No accomodation, no compromise will be enough. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2010, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decided-smokers-are-not-people/531612/116 "2010-03-09T21:57:44Z")
> [@The\_Falling\_Reverend](#): > > I for one, am in favor of banning smoking outdoors. While all those pesky non-smokers are out enjoying their fresh air again, we can sneak back into the bar and have a few cigs with our beers. Just make sure the bouncers keep them out of \*\*our \*\*bar. But then, they’ll probably sue because they’re being discriminated against. ---
**Author:** ![Sapo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@Sapo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sapo)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2010, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decided-smokers-are-not-people/531612/117 "2010-03-10T00:00:42Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > … Give up pork ribs, (_shiver_)… Well, it took a while but you are finally shivering for something shiverworthy. Progress has been made. I now consider this thread a success. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2010, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decided-smokers-are-not-people/531612/118 "2010-03-10T03:08:37Z")
> [@Sapo](#): > > Well, it took a while but you are finally shivering for something shiverworthy. Progress has been made. I now consider this thread a success. Pork ribs are serious business. You’ll get my pork ribs when you can pry them … ---
**Author:** ![kopek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kopek/32/337_2.png) [@kopek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kopek)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2010, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decided-smokers-are-not-people/531612/119 "2010-03-10T03:25:32Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Like I said, I’d be happy for them to smoke **anyplace** if they kept their smoke to themselves. But if they can’t, and if their smoke is constantly bothering non-smokers, I’m not going to be surprised if the more militant non-smokers continue to push through additional legal restrictions on their smoking. I was basically on your side of all this until our county tried to make the Pittsburgh Cigar Bar go smoke free because some poor nonsmoker may want to have a drink there. It’s a fucking cigar bar you (in a general sense) fucking moron. If you didn’t want to inhale the smoke you should have stayed outside! Again, non-smokers and people with health issues I have no complaint with - I married one. But the anti’s have tied all this up with so much garbage and so many garbage laws that my wife figures I may need to be a more militant smoker. Since its popped up as usual - second hand smoke? My favorite quote is that in 2007, The New England Journal of Medicine estimated an individual would need to spend 4,000 hours in a smoke filled room to inhale the amount of smoke in one cigarette. Compared to a lot of the risks I face in my life, I can live with that one. Let me paraphrase you a little: I’d be happy for support people bothered by smoking if they kept to themselves and out of places designated for smoking. But if they can’t, and if their attitude is constantly bothering everyone, I’m not going to be surprised if the more militant smokers begin to push through “backlash legal actions” whenever they can. Either way it will be interesting to watch. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2010, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decided-smokers-are-not-people/531612/120 "2010-03-10T03:40:14Z")
> [@kopek](#): > > I was basically on your side of all this until our county tried to make the Pittsburgh Cigar Bar go smoke free because some poor nonsmoker may want to have a drink there. It’s a fucking cigar bar you (in a general sense) fucking moron. If you didn’t want to inhale the smoke you should have stayed outside! That’s part of my gripe with the whole affair - It will never be enough. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decided-smokers-are-not-people/531612.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decided-smokers-are-not-people/531612.md?page=7)