# Declaration of Independence Question **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 23, 2015, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-independence-question/710643 "2015-01-23T02:20:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![dolphinboy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dolphinboy/32/330_2.png) [@dolphinboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dolphinboy)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-independence-question/710643/1 "2015-01-23T02:20:20Z")
Did King George III ever see a copy of the US Declaration of Independence? We know that copies were sent to Britain, but that doesn’t mean the King ever saw one. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-independence-question/710643/2 "2015-01-23T02:44:29Z")
He knew of it because he gave a speech to Parliament on [October 31, 1776](http://concurringopinions.com/archives/2012/10/the-british-response-to-the-declaration-of-independence.html). Seems unlikely he wasn’t responding to the document itself. > [@](#): > > Nothing could have afforded Me so much Satisfaction as to have been able to inform you, at the Opening of this Session, that the Troubles, which have so long distracted My Colonies in North America, were at an End; and that My unhappy People, recovered from their Delusion, had delivered themselves from the Oppression of their Leaders, and returned to their Duty. But so daring and desperate is the Spirit of those Leaders, whose Object has always been Dominion and Power, that they have now openly renounced all Allegiance to the Crown, and all political Connection with this Country. They have rejected, with Circumstances of Indignity and Insult, the Means of Conciliation held out to them under the Authority of Our Commission: and have presumed to set up their rebellious Confederacies for Independent States. If their Treason be suffered to take Root, much Mischief must grow from it, to the Safety of My loyal Colonies, to the Commerce of My Kingdoms, and indeed to the present System of all Europe. One great Advantage, however, will be derived from the Object of the Rebels being openly avowed, and clearly understood. We shall have Unanimity at Home, founded in the general Conviction of the Justice and Necessity of Our Measures. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-independence-question/710643/3 "2015-01-23T02:52:41Z")
Think how embarrassing it would have been if nobody had shown him a copy until around 1790 - and he said _“Was that what this was about? Hell, this stuff was no big deal. I would have agreed to all of this.”_ ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-independence-question/710643/4 "2015-01-23T03:43:47Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Think how embarrassing it would have been if nobody had shown him a copy until around 1790 - and he said _“Was that what this was about? Hell, this stuff was no big deal. I would have agreed to all of this.”_ Was it before or after 1790 that George III started to turn kookoo? ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-independence-question/710643/5 "2015-01-23T03:57:44Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > … and he said _“Was that what this was about? Hell, this stuff was no big deal. I would have agreed to all of this.”_ There’s not much there for him to agree to - or perhaps I should say, his agreement would have changed nothing. The document is basically a detailed list of all the bad things he has done, or been responsible for, and includes the pithy summary “A Prince whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.” ---
**Author:** ![MikeS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MikeS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeS)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-independence-question/710643/6 "2015-01-23T04:06:56Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > Was it before or after 1790 that George III started to turn kookoo? If you believe Wikipedia, the first major spell was around 1788–9, with relapses around 1801 and 1803, and a final descent into mental illness around 1810 that lasted the remaining ten years of his life. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-independence-question/710643/7 "2015-01-23T16:17:04Z")
Classified ad: FOR SALE: Large Cadillac hearse with 1962 body. ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-independence-question/710643/8 "2015-01-23T19:11:03Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > He knew of it because he gave a speech to Parliament on [October 31, 1776](http://concurringopinions.com/archives/2012/10/the-british-response-to-the-declaration-of-independence.html). Seems unlikely he wasn’t responding to the document itself. It might be true that he gave such a speech, but that doesn’t necessarily mean he was himself familiar with the document. By 1776, the office of Prime Minister in the modern sense, with the government being responsible to Parliament rather than the monarch, had already evolved. It’s thus not far-fetched to assume that George III was simply reading out a speech prepared for him by th government, as is nowadays common practice for the Speech from the Throne. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-independence-question/710643/9 "2015-01-23T19:30:55Z")
> [@Schnitte](#): > > It might be true that he gave such a speech, but that doesn’t necessarily mean he was himself familiar with the document. By 1776, the office of Prime Minister in the modern sense, with the government being responsible to Parliament rather than the monarch, had already evolved. It’s thus not far-fetched to assume that George III was simply reading out a speech prepared for him by th government, as is nowadays common practice for the Speech from the Throne. Nitpick: the office of Prime Minister did not exist in law until 1917. Prior to that, the “prime ministers” were officially just the leaders of the House of Commons (or quite frequently the House of Lords, and usually but not always First Lords of the Treasury.) ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-independence-question/710643/10 "2015-01-23T20:12:42Z")
Note, too, that he didn’t have to have read the Declaration to make that speech – someone undoubtedly told him what was going on, and I could imagine he didn’t want to dignify the Declaration by reading it. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-independence-question/710643/11 "2015-01-23T20:17:04Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Note, too, that he didn’t have to have read the Declaration to make that speech – someone undoubtedly told him what was going on, and I could imagine he didn’t want to dignify the Declaration by reading it. Now that would be a shame… John Hancock, so the story goes, signed his name large "so that King George could read it without his spectacles. " 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-independence-question/710643/12 "2015-01-23T20:31:30Z")
That’s an urban legend. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-independence-question/710643/13 "2015-01-23T21:17:25Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Note, too, that he didn’t have to have read the Declaration to make that speech – someone undoubtedly told him what was going on, and I could imagine he didn’t want to dignify the Declaration by reading it. Now that would be a shame… John Hancock, so the story goes, signed his name large "so that King George could read it without his spectacles. " 😉 ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-independence-question/710643/14 "2015-01-23T21:19:37Z")
That’s why I wrote “so the story goes.” ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-independence-question/710643/15 "2015-01-23T21:57:56Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Note, too, that he didn’t have to have read the Declaration to make that speech – someone undoubtedly told him what was going on, and I could imagine he didn’t want to dignify the Declaration by reading it. Possibly, but what I know of George III I am not quite prepared to buy it. He came to the throne determined to be a lot more active as King than his two Royal predecessors and directed governments in a way not seen since Anne. He was certainly not an absolute monarch and had to work within a system set up by parliamentarians, but he was a political, active constitutional monarch. The modern concepts of the monarch being ceremonial and impartial were a century away from being cemented. I would wager he read it and had a lot of opinions about it! Also, being British I love appreciating that we, the Brits, actually _have_ the Declaration - after all, it’s not much of one if you keep it for yourself. The copy is in the US, the ‘original’ is here! I’ve seen - and touched - it with my own eyes and hands too! ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-independence-question/710643/16 "2015-01-23T22:12:32Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > […] > > I’ve seen - and touched - it with my own eyes and hands too! That would be a neat trick, since it’s kept inside a glass case filled with helium. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-independence-question/710643/17 "2015-01-23T22:13:39Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > That would be a neat trick, since it’s kept inside a glass case filled with helium. Not the one stored in the UK Parliament… ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-independence-question/710643/18 "2015-01-23T22:25:40Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > Not the one stored in the UK Parliament… The actual signed document is known as the [Engrossed Copy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_history_of_the_United_States_Declaration_of_Independence#Engrossed_copy) and is in the National Archives. There are three [Dunlop boardsides](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_history_of_the_United_States_Declaration_of_Independence#List_of_extant_Dunlap_broadsides) in Britain. The one that Parliament has is an acknowledged [copy](http://www.parliament.uk/about/living-heritage/evolutionofparliament/legislativescrutiny/parliament-and-empire/collections1/collections/declaration-of-independence/). The one you saw can’t be the original if it was exposed to the air. The ink was badly fading on it by 1820. Any copy not sealed in a protective environment would be essentially blank today. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-independence-question/710643/19 "2015-01-23T22:30:59Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > The actual signed document is known as the [Engrossed Copy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_history_of_the_United_States_Declaration_of_Independence#Engrossed_copy) and is in the National Archives. > > There are three [Dunlop boardsides](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_history_of_the_United_States_Declaration_of_Independence#List_of_extant_Dunlap_broadsides) in Britain. The one that Parliament has is an acknowledged [copy](http://www.parliament.uk/about/living-heritage/evolutionofparliament/legislativescrutiny/parliament-and-empire/collections1/collections/declaration-of-independence/). > > The one you saw can’t be the original if it was exposed to the air. The ink was badly fading on it by 1820. Any copy not sealed in a protective environment would be essentially blank today. Happily corrected. Still cool to interact with a broadside though! ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-independence-question/710643/20 "2015-01-23T22:42:55Z")
Just what IS a “broadside,” anyway?😕 [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-independence-question/710643.md?page=2)