# Declaration of Independence Question **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 23, 2015, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-independence-question/710643 "2015-01-23T02:20:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freddy_the_Pig)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2015, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-independence-question/710643/41 "2015-01-26T15:18:14Z")
> [@Schnitte](#): > > By 1776, the office of Prime Minister in the modern sense, with the government being responsible to Parliament rather than the monarch, had already evolved. George III _created his own majorities_ in Parliament, through adroit distribution of money, honors, and patronage. He was not one to sit passively and let Parliament come to him. Given this fact, and the fact that George III [filled volumes](http://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/webbin/book/lookupid?key=ha000108737) with correspondence with his ministers on every conceivable subject, I’d be shocked–nay, stunned–if he never read the Declaration. But, I can’t prove that he did. There is an odd gap in his correspondence from the summer of 1776. (The Declaration of Independence reached England about August 10.) Conspiracy theorists, have at it. ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2015, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-independence-question/710643/42 "2015-01-26T15:28:01Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I’m not saying the office did not exist. I am saying that “Prime Minister” was not an _official title_ before 1917, when it began to appear in statutory instruments. And I am saying that in a system where not only statutes but also unwritten conventions are accepted as sources of constitutional law, the existence of the office of Prime Minister, together with this title, in such conventions makes it just as “official” as it would be if the term appeared in statute. The British constitution consists of more than just statutory instruments. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2015, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-independence-question/710643/43 "2015-01-28T02:36:49Z")
This must make for some interesting case law rulings in British courts. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2015, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-independence-question/710643/44 "2015-01-28T03:24:33Z")
Constitutional conventions don’t normally get litigated in the courts, because they are not legal principles. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2015, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-independence-question/710643/45 "2015-01-28T03:52:06Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > This must make for some interesting case law rulings in British courts. Perhaps more to the point: The UK is (mostly?) a Common Law system just like most of America (except Louisiana) and most of Canada (except Quebec) so the basis of law is the same there as it is in most of here; they just sometimes have occasion to cite to cases and other sources of law which are older than the ones our legal professionals use. As near as I can tell, however, the kind of legal reasoning is much the same. (Also, they have a split profession, with barristers and solicitors, and they use white powdered wigs more often. I don’t understand that nearly as much.) ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2015, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-independence-question/710643/46 "2015-01-28T04:00:06Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > I am forever amazed at how informal the UK’s Constitution actually is… 😕 “the UK’s Constitution”? ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2015, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-independence-question/710643/47 "2015-01-28T07:54:53Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > 😕 “the UK’s Constitution”? The UK undoubtedly has a constitution. It’s just not codified like those of most other countries. A constitution doesn’t have to be written in one document for it to exist. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2015, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-independence-question/710643/48 "2015-07-04T17:00:16Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I’m not saying the office did not exist. I am saying that “Prime Minister” was not an _official title_ before 1917, when it began to appear in statutory instruments. [Stephen Fry tells all.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3pC6S5eGBU) ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2015, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-independence-question/710643/49 "2015-07-04T17:51:16Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > The office of Canadian Prime Minister is similarly undefined. There were only two references to the Prime Minister in the Constitution of Canada, in two provisions which have now been repealed. There is currently no reference to the Prime Minister in the Constitution. So can you get a Court to issue a writ of _Quo Warranto_ to Harper? Next time you are pissed at him. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2015, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-independence-question/710643/50 "2015-07-04T17:56:07Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > The Brits are nuts that way. I remember being able to touch the Rosetta Stone and wondering why on earth I was allowed to do so. I have a photo from Westminster Abbey, of the throne showing people’s names carved in it, graffiti style, from an earlier period. Now it has an actual rope around it! (There is probably a bit more surveillance of the spot–particularly following the 1950 theft of the Stone of Scone–but to the tourists wandering through, it appears a bit open.) ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2015, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-independence-question/710643/51 "2015-07-04T18:36:18Z")
And I saw the Rosetta Stone over New Year’s. Sadly, behind glass now. Well, you can still climb the Great Pyramid if you bribe the right person. So we got that going for us. ---
**Author:** ![RadicalPi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/radicalpi/32/9806_2.png) [@RadicalPi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RadicalPi)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2015, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-independence-question/710643/52 "2015-07-04T19:12:00Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > Perhaps more to the point: The UK is (mostly?) a Common Law system just like most of America (except Louisiana) and most of Canada (except Quebec) so the basis of law is the same there as it is in most of here; they just sometimes have occasion to cite to cases and other sources of law which are older than the ones our legal professionals use. The common law of the UK as established before 1776 is still valid in the US\*. I don’t know how often it’s used, but it’s available should it be needed. (\* Except for the stuff that’s been explicitly superseded or repealed and so on.) ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2015, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-independence-question/710643/53 "2015-07-04T19:43:39Z")
Rather, the common law of _England_. There is no uniform common law of the UK, as Scots law is different from English law. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2015, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-independence-question/710643/54 "2015-07-04T19:45:15Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > So can you get a Court to issue a writ of _Quo Warranto_ to Harper? Next time you are pissed at him. > > 😃 Oh, there’s an Order in Council appointing him as a minister of the Crown. It’s just that there is no constitutional definition. Of the office nor its powers and duties. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2015, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-independence-question/710643/55 "2015-07-05T20:19:08Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The truth is, John Hancock was 30 feet tall and just signed in his usual fashion. And his signature in the snow was awesome! ---
**Author:** ![mascaroni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dc4da7/32.png) [@mascaroni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mascaroni)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2015, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-independence-question/710643/56 "2015-07-06T15:38:07Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > And his signature in the snow was awesome! I heard it took Hancock half an hour to complete. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2015, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-independence-question/710643/57 "2015-07-06T17:51:05Z")
> [@mascaroni](#): > > I heard it took Hancock half an hour to complete. And it was in the Queens handwriting. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2015, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-independence-question/710643/58 "2015-07-06T18:41:51Z")
From one perspective as well, the UK Prime Minister’s official job, ‘First Lord of the Treasury’, isn’t even one job but _part_ of a job. Since 1714, the office of Lord High Treasurer has been placed ‘in commission’, which means it’s shared among a group of people. The Second Lord is the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the UK’s _actual_ finance minister/treasurer. The Third, Fourth, Fifth and Sixth Lords of the Treasury, the ‘junior lords’, are government whips in the Commons. They are managed by the ‘chief whip’, who himself has the sinecure of ‘Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury’, also called the ‘Patronage Secretary’ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-independence-question/710643.md?page=2)